It's a great day here in Orem, Utah. I have one inspection today which will cap off our most prosperous month ever here at MichaelLeavitt & Co. I scheduled just one inspection so that I can put the finishing touches on my big Uintah fishing trip.
That's right, tomorrow morning at 4 am we will depart Orem, Utah, and head up to Fort Bridger, Wyoming and head south again back into Utah. As a Scoutmaster, we will take a group of 8 (one other adult and 6 12 yr olds) to the highest peak in Utah at 13,528 feet above sea level. We will fish in over 20 lakes and won't return back to mankind until Saturday evening. What this means is that I will be out of contact, out of reach, out of cell phone range, and out of e-mail delivery for 5 long days of blissful hiking and fishing.
Last week's description of my peace offering drew some great responses. Some agreed with my payoff, others disdained the idea. Jon Gudnason has obviously been down this same path before me........
Your release form should specifically say that you are "admitting" no responsibility. A release form is all about saying you are willing to give the Wantsomeonetopays something in order for them to release you from any future responsibility. It is a legal settlement of a dispute, not an admitting of responsibility. For $200 I would have done the same as Michael and paid. I would have required the signed release in my hand prior to handing over the $$$. The mail works well for this kind of thing. Jon Gudnason - Placerville, CA
Jon took the time to pass along the following release form that he uses..........
For the sole consideration of dollars $__________ the undersigned hereby releases and forever discharges (Inspectors Name) and all other persons, firms and corporations from all claims and demands, rights and causes of action of any kind the undersigned now has or hereafter may have on account of or in any way growing out of personal injuries known or unknown to me/us at the present time and property damage resulting or to result from an occurrence which happened on or about Date , Year and do hereby covenant to indemnify and save harmless the said party or parties from and against all claims and demands whatsoever on account of or in any way growing out of said occurrence or its result both to person and property. This release expresses a full and complete SETTLEMENT of a liability claimed and denied regardless of adequacy of the above consideration, and the attempts of this release shall not operate as an admission of liability on the part of anyone nor as an estoppel, waiver or bar with respect to any claim the party or parties released may have against the undersigned. Witness my hand and seal.
Dated , 20
YOU ARE MAKING A FINAL SETTLEMENT THIS IS A RELEASE: READ BEFORE SIGNING
I/we have read this Release
Signature ______________________________ Print Name _____________________________
This subject also caught the attention of Steve Dansby in Portola, CA........
Way to go, Shelly! Michael, I know you listen to your wife's advise before making a decision, but in this case you should have taken it. If your agreement did not include a pest inspection you were no more responsible for the existing condition (or inspecting for pests) than the realtor who called you whining. A hidden condition is beyond readily accessible and/or visual, no matter what they may have found after exposing “hidden areas.” (We are a licensed pest inspection company in CA. We never accept responsibility for hidden infestations-- period.) I wonder… If they removed the wallpaper and found a valuable document, worth tons of money, would they have called to complain or perhaps to require you to share in the bounty? Doubtful. Steve E. Dansby
Steve was obviously still bothered by the situation that I was going through and he has had to deal with the same type of situation more than a few times. I appreciate his strong feelings and reading them allows all of us to be better prepared the next time the phone rings with a disillusioned Agent or Client on the other end of the line........
After reading today's MMM my “must rant and rave” kicked in and forced me to post my thoughts. (You may want to read the latest MMM to better understand the following.)
These realtors who call whining ("I feel particularly bad about this and I'm feeling that if we have no responsibility to our clients then what good is it?") could care less about their client and more about deferring the “problem”. However, they hope you care and generously (The more $$$$$ the better THEY look). (What the realtor’s hidden meaning is “I’m feeling that if YOU have no responsibility to MY client what good are YOU?) This is a bad realtor and pathetic to boot. If that realtor was "feeling particularly bad" why didn't he/she just take care of it OUT OF THEIR POCKET!
The realtor continues: "I'm feeling that if we have no responsibility to our client what good is it?" Feelings! That realtor has FEELINGS? Give me a break (Did the realtor offer to contribute too?) . When we are contracted to perform a service, (sell a house, tune up a car or inspect a residence), we are bound by our agreement and Standards Of Practice (SOP); NOT FEELINGS. If you went to a home to perform an inspection and you chose not to evaluate the electrical (or whatever) and the realtor asks "Why didn't you report on the electrical"? You could say "I didn't FEEL like it at the moment!" That realtor could rightfully ask, "What do you mean you didn’t FEEL like it? What have your FEELINGS got to do with fulfilling your agreement?" We, just as realtors, our bound by our agreements. Agreements or contracts dictate what we do and how we perform. FEELINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH AN AGREEMENT (OR CONTRACT).
Can you imagine how upset this world would be if we all lived according to how ‘WE FEEL’ at the moment! Airline pilots deciding to fly at “Feel Good” elevations to “Feel Good” destinations instead of prescribed heights and destinations. Shooting another driver during “Road Rage” because it “Felt Good” at the moment. I could go on, but you get the point. FEELINGS CANNOT BE RELIED UPON! THEY ARE NOT A BAROMETER FOR TRUTH OR FACT!
Why does the inspection industry, home inspectors in particular, FEEL like it needs to apologize (in the form of money) or be the kicking post for a client/realtor? Why? Are we that insecure? Do we FEEL that incompetent? Must we always FEEL that we are the ones who created or at least contributed in some way to the CONDITION that was discovered? Do we FEEL guilty, simply because we were hired to perform the inspection?
At what point do we say enough is enough? $200.00? $2,000.00? $20,000.00? I say it is not in the amount, but in the principle.
If we are professionals then we should act accordingly, whether right or wrong. If we are at fault then take the responsibility and make it right. However, if we are not at fault we should not accept guilt or share blame. We need to explain carefully what our service provided according to the contract and give proper direction to the client if possible. It may not FEEL good to you or them, but it is the right thing to do. NO! It is the Professional thing to do! Steve E. Dansby - Portola, CA
Steve Bradley shared his thoughts from Oregon.......
Michael, You made a proper ''business'' decision. Bill was right. A nuisance, sure, but goodwill goes a long way. Now your ''how high'' agent will speak highly of you at the next office meeting and reinforce to the other agents on how you are the Best Inspector in Utah and your integrity is above reproach. And as you know the Buyer will sing praises long into the night. You will receive more positive publicity on giving back $200 than spending $500 in advertising would do for you. Now to your question above.....
About 3 years ago I inspected a well-seasoned home in the historical district of Ashland, OR. circa 1890's. This home was 550 sq ft with a sleeping loft. The current use was as a home. Out of state buyers were unable to be at the inspection and the building was occupied. First off ,the crawl space was inaccessible and a concrete foundation had been installed in 1932. Found the date next to 1 of the 2 vent openings. I listed the crawl space as inaccessible and recommended further inspection. The first floor exterior walls were brick and there were 2 metal bands used as strapping to keep the building from spreading and falling apart. Now, I recommended an Engineer to further evaluate the entire structure.
Have the picture?
Well, the clients accepted the report and contracted with a company specializing in digouts of crawl space areas and repairs. No engineer was contacted. The seller moved out and the digout was completed and then I got the call, "Steve why didn't you report on the termites under the house? You knew the floor squeeked when you walked across it. What are you going to do.?" I said I would meet the agent at the home and take a look. I crawled under the house and yes, there was termite damage to the floor joists and mud sill and bottom of the subfloor. I then went into the home and this area was located where the piano and throw rugs were located. We discussed why I didn't report the findings uncovered at this later date, but it didn't seem to matter. The agent agreed it wasn't my fault but the buyer was upset.
I was able to contact the buyer and he told me it was my responsibility at first. Then we discussed the report and he agreed I was not to blame. Back to the agent I explained my position and stood by my guns. No fault --no money. Well, that was the last inspection I performed for that agent. We do not have responsibility for later discoveries, but a small monetary token can go a long way. Steve Bradley - OR
Jim Corbin also responded...... I agree with Ron Cloyd... No contract for the service and it is hidden damage. Even with the Pest Inspection, the damage was hidden and therefore not covered by the inspection. We do not do destructive discovery. End of subject. The Realtor should know this, anyway, as they deal with you frequently. It appears that the Realtor is trying to save face, for whatever reason, at your expense. Jim Corbin - Bow, WA
Jim also had more to share and responded again with....... I agree that the issue is behind you, but I wonder at the intent or thinking of the Realtor...their future or yours. In bringing up the "guarantee" issue, I wonder if that is not indirectly a critical point with what you offer (not!). I still think that a closer conversation with the Realtor is required...hidden damage, no contract for service, no destructive discovery, etc. However, that said...it is a trail that is best decided by the one who walks in the shoes. Each of us will make the choice when we get there and may decide that a contribution is in order. I don't think a tag of "responsibility" is at issue as no inspection was desired. Jim Corbin - Bow, WA
Alan Muenzel from SLC, Utah, responded.... Well ,for the good will, I would have done the same thing you did and given them the $200.00 just to keep all happy. But if it was more then half the total Inspection fee, I would have thought twice about it before I did more. Alan Muenzel
Roy Brown also had some words to share and a testimonial on moisture meters......
Michael, My experience is less than vast, however I had to deal with the inlaws once, the Youshouldknoweverythingandpayifyoudon'ts. I missed deteriorated wood below a french door that used to be a slider. It was rotted below the vinyl, and looked like new on the bottom of the sheathing in the crawl space. This was the last inspection I have ever been on without a moisture meter. They found the rot when installing a hardwood floor where the vinyl was. The realtor was hoping I would help the "problem" to a satisfactory conclusion. The realtor was my best one (and a good one) and I don't have enough to live on yet. I called up Mark Daughtry and he agreed to bail me out. Mark is a very good construction guy. His time and the materials with me helping cost a little more than the inspection fee. It was worth it.
Nothing against training sessions, but I learned way more from that experience than I ever have paying for a class. I also still work for that agent, whom I respect. And once the several days of inconvience were over, so was my stress. I'm older than a lot of AII members. Some of my age came from being right and taking a stand when it wasn't worth it. I choose my battles more carefully now. Roy Brown - WA
Roy's testimonial of the "School of Hard Knocks" leads me to the higher question of what did this situation teach me. Roy learned the value of a moisture meter. Although some would say that it is a technically exhaustive approach to home inspecting and beyond the job description, I would say that the moisture meter can prevent the disgruntled phone calls. Our lives would be simpler if we really could uncover every Reportable Condition in the home within the specified time frame and without destructive discovery.
I also find it amazing how easy the answers are when you are not the Inspector in the situation. Looking from the outside in gives a great perspective based solely on principle. I respect Roy's closing thoughts about choosing one's battles..... Some of my age came from being right and taking a stand when it wasn't worth it. I choose my battles more carefully now.
Betty Buckley has lost more sleep over long, drawn-out litigation than any other inspector I know and she shared.... It is a tough call, Michael. With consideration to all of the facts; how high agent, getting rid of the issue, etc., I believe you made a wise business decision. There is absolutely no doubt it would have cost you more to fight it, not to mention additional sleepless nights and stress. In our business, we also use a very good Release Form that eliminates the possibility of any other claims for anything to do with this inspection ever. Fortunately, we haven't used it much.
The peace of mind that $200 bought you was worth it. The hard part for me is having someone think I didn't perform my inspection properly. That is my human emotions that I have to set aside when we need to make a tough business decision like this. Shelly is for you like Nathan is for me. I had to do this not too long ago also. Nathan was very protective of me, knowing I had performed a good inspection but we came to a place where we had to realize this was the best choice for our business! I swallowed hard and wrote out a check. I did not like it one bit and Nathan liked it even less but we both understood it was the best thing for our business. Best regards. Betty Buckley - OR
My website once again drew some interesting feedback from a cyber surfer in regards to the deck failure articles that I have both written and posted.
I've been doing a web search on stories on deck collapses. I am a Pressure Washing Contractor specializing in deck restoration, including deck repairs. As an interesting twist, I am also a registered professional engineer (Civil/Structural) so I understand the detials of the issues. Part of my inital proposal for doing deck work is a structural inspection to identify key problem areas. While I personally know how things should be, I went looking for code references to support my position on repair. You are right, there are damn few code references. My local city inspectors (and they are good guys) were not sure exactly what the current codes said. They have been just requiring the same 'good' construction details for years without really relying on the codes. They do make people/constractors build a sturdy, well attached deck.
But back to the codes,
I found that the 1999 Southern Building Code requires handrails to resist a 200 lb pint load in any direction and (not simultaneously) a 50 lbs per linear foor uniform load in any direction. I find many decks outside code inspection areas that have just nailed spindles for handrail support and certainly, the handrail cannot pass this requirement.
The 1997 CABO code states that external decks shall not be just nailed to the house. But they don't say they need to be bolted or on what interval,size, etc.! (What a bunch of wimps!). Current code practice in my area is to bolt with 3/8" lag bolt on max 4 foot centers. However, for the ease of putting in lag bolts, I prefer to recommend a 1/2" lag bolt (with flat washer) every joist space (especially if you can't locate into the sill plate). I could understand allowing thru bolts on 4' max centers but still I like the 1/2" bolt - while smaller bolts may be OK (who really knows what the forces they need to resist), the 1/2" bolt 'looks' right in relation to the overall size of all other members of a typical deck.
Your articles don't mention about joist connection to the header boards. Again, I prefer to see either metal joist brackets (nailed or screwed) OR a continuous 2 x 2 ledger board under the ends of the joists with the joist toe nailed to the ledger AND to the header board. The 2 x 2 ledger can be nailed (16d) on 12" centers or screwed on same interval with no. 10 screws or 1/4" lag bolts (Length equal to total member thickness). Funny thing about the bracket or ledger requirement is that many places only do it on the house side of the deck, not on the other end or the joist - I suppose the issue is that outside header really doesn't have any significant forces to pull the joints away from the header. But I do find end nailed joists sagging down and casuing deck plank uneveness.
Lorin Grable - Aquarian Service Kompany - Oak Ridge, TN
When I shared this with other home inspectors I received some feedback......
Greg DeVault responded back with a wonderful flashing diagram that he uses in his reports......
The builders are getting better about bolting the ledger to the house in these parts (Seattle area). The problem I see is lack of adequate flashing. Most builders don't flash the ledger if it's installed over the siding. Their logic (I've discussed this with more than one) is that the siding protects the framing. This is true to an extent but water will set on top of the ledger and rot out the siding eventually, thus penetrating into the framing. Don't forget the bolt holes either. I think the ledger should be flashed even if it's attached to the outside of the siding. Here's the diagram I include in my reports. I used to build my decks this way. Greg DeVault - Seattle, WA
Bill Loden from Alabama shared..... Re: deck flashing. This is from the Southern Building code: The code does not make specific reference to the requirements for flashing between the house and deck. However Section 1403.1.4 has general requirements for flashing. 1403.1.4 Flashing shall be provided as necessary to prevent the entrance of water at openings in or projections through veneered walls. Flashing shall be provided at intersections of veneered walls of different materials unless such materials provide a self-flashing joint and at other points subject to the entrance of water. Caulking shall be provided where such flashing is determined by the building official to be impractical.
As far as ledger strips supporting joist, the SBC Table 2306.1, Fastening Schedule, requires 3 each 16d common in the ledger at each joist. I'm not sure where your writer got the 16d on 12 inch centers requirement. Bill Loden
Home inspectors are in a tough business at times. Customers have certain expectations from each of us; right or wrong. We are looked upon as being knowledgeable in home construction. That puts some of us at a disadvantage and all of us at risk.
Customers want answers and they expect them from us in most cases. We want to be helpful and informative. Where do we draw the line between helpful and being at risk? We are contacted by a client, we give them our qualifications and try to set a date for an inspection. Didn't we just tell them >we are the most qualified< and put our all in trying to convince them to use our services? With that enthusiasm we set ourselves up as "The building answer man/woman". That may not be what we said or meant to do, but it happens every time we confirm an inspection. The day of the inspection arrives and you perform the inspection then deliver your report to the client. They're impressed. But, they have questions from the reported conditions. "How do you think that could have happened to the siding, how do you fix a defective GFI, what kind of sealer works best for redwood decks, are the subcontractors reliable in this area and who would >you< recommend." The list goes on and I'm sure you've heard these and many more. O.K. What do we do now? They are not going to be satisfied with >I can't answer that for you< >No! Sorry that goes beyond my services as a home inspector< >Yes! I am familiar with many of the subcontractors in the area, but it is up to you to discover who is worthy and who is not<. Those are not acceptable answers for anyone and they tarnish our industry. Personally, I rely upon my years of being in the building business and serving this area since 1979. I will always answer with what my expertise will allow. Nothing more. Nothing less. If I know I will tell them. If I don't I will tell them that as well. I make it clear to my clients my limitations. However, I make recommendations as required for them to go forth helped. I have never regretted doing so. It is wise to let the client know, upfront, we cannot possibly detect, (much less report), every defect, future defect or project what may turn up during a remodel. I always say, "We are good, but not perfect. We provide a thorough report, but it is limited due to several factors (time, visual only, etc.). If we could tear into things to see what was going on, we would still be limited by what is visible. Even with that we may still not find the answer." Rambling on... Steve E. Dansby
Steve Dansby is one of the best minds in our Industry. He shares wisdom and evokes emotion with each posting. I think that he will need to take over the MMM while Shelly and I are floating in the Carribean next month...... What do you think, Steve??? His posting hit me right between the eyes..... Our marketing approach was exactly what Steve described..... We were set to define this "new to Utah" profession as being the "Peace of Mind" that every home buyer needed. We set ourselves up as being The Answer Man....The Know It All...... The Source For All Knowledge about the home...... After the first two year uphill climb to the top of success we have then tried to redefine ourselves as being human and only able to find what we can see..... That is a real paradigm shift, isn't it?
Doug Treloar shared his approach to sharing trade referrals..... Steve, I wouldn't recommend anybody unless I have personal knowledge of their qualifications and abilities. What I do is collect business cards from the different tradespeople I come across and place them in a binder, according to their trade or profession. When a client asks if I know anyone, I show them my binder and let them select whomever they think may be the best qualified. It's like having the local phonebook with me and the business cards usually contain more useful information on them than the yellow pages. Doug Treloar - Carpinteria, CA
Dear Mr. Leavitt. This is Jon Larson down in Ephraim with a question that I don't know the answer for. I hope you don't mind but I would like to ask your opinion.
I inspected a 1944 year old brick home. The gable ends were wood ship lap but had been recovered with Aluminum siding. The shingles had been covered over with aluminum shingles also. Two new additions to the home were also covered in aluminum siding that terminated about two feet off the ground. As I was inspecting the exterior a porch light had once existed over a door that was no longer located in this area. The light had been removed and bare wires were exiting the aluminum siding and extended about two inches out. Further investigation revealed that the wires were still connected to a breaker and were still hot. This started my mind running with numerous questions and one I don't know the answer to.
With this much aluminum present should the siding and the shingles be connected to a grounding rod? With the size of the house and should the aluminum every become charged could a person touching the aluminum while standing on the ground provide the path to the ground.
If you have any thoughts on this please let me know. Thank You. Jon Larson - Ephraim, UT
I responded back to my friend in rural Utah.......
Jon: That is a great question..... I know that when a steel studded structure is erected they will bond the metal framing, but I have never heard of the need for aluminum siding or roofing. In theory all of the electrical penetrations are equipped with junction boxes so that the metal siding would not cut through the live wire casing. The reality is that you are referring to an older 2 wire system that does not have any grounding..... What do you think the results would be if the paneling was energized??? Wouldn't it spark and then quickly trip the breaker or fuse???.
I'm thinking out loud here as I type........ How would you go about bonding aluminum siding or shingles??? The siding and shingles interlock, but not in any real secure way. Is it lightening that you are trying to protect from or is it the energizing from cut electrical wiring? I know that a lightening rod salesman made quite a bit of money out your way a long while back..... You have many more lightening rod systems installed there than we do here per capita.
I will throw your question out to some of the other e-mail forums and see what kind of responses I get back. I'll then forward them on to you. Michael Leavitt
The responses were eye-opening on a topic that I had never given real thought to...
Michael, In a few of the jurisdictions around here, aluminum siding does require grounding. Most don't require it, though. If memory serves, the NEC suggests, but does not mandate, grounding of all metal parts of a house that aren't specifically mentioned in the code. Tony Devine
Bob Peek shared..... In his book "Wiring a House," Rex Cauldwell says any metal that could accidently become energized, through induction or fault, should be grounded. He goes on to recount an incident where he was shocked when he touched some metal ductwork under a house.
My aluminum siding is grounded to one rod, but I don't know how thorough the bond is around the house. Bob Peek
Larry Cerro in Florida shared..... Michael, You make a very good point. It is required here, but.... When you look up aluminum siding in the NEC, it refers you to 250-116 which talks about grounding of nonelectric equipment. It says ."..The metal parts of non-electric equipment shall be grounded... "and in the fine print notes it states "Where extensive metal in or on buildings may become energized and is subject to personal contact, adequate bonding and grounding will provide additional safety."
Sounds pretty whimpy to me. And it doesn't answer the question of how, and how often, and if there is enough continuity through the loosely connected panels to carry the bond effectively through the entire fabrication. Sounds like one for Doug Hansen. Larry Cerro - FL
Noel McShane shared some confident words on how an electrified metal siding system will send power to the ground.... Yes it is required in some Jurisdictions for metal clad siding to be bonded. This is usualy accomplished by running bond wire to a a solid ground such as a ground rod. Screws are placed trough the metal where it is doubled up near the base, at least one is used at each side of house. NEC does not require it, but suggests it.
Of the few houses I have found bonded all but one were bonded to metal waterpipes, all but one had broken/loose wires.
I NEVER report this on a metal sidied house, but I might on a metal roof/metal sided house. Don't worry about continuity, trust me, the power will find the ground. Noel McShane, Georgia
Ken Jones pondered...... How about the metal/aluminum wood stoves exhaust vents that stick up out of the roof and go down and attach to the wood stove that everyone stands around during wet weather. ??? Ken Jones - CA
Last week's Photo Challenge drew a lot of blank stares and few responses. I shared.... This is a wood burning fireplace with a gas log conversion. The home was vacant, but the reportable condition happened while renters were in the home..... What do you think was the cause? NOTE: I know that we are not supposed to spend time figuring out the cause, but knowing what created the reportable condition will greatly help us better report on them in the future. The "What was the Cause?" answer may surprise you.
The cause of the fire was the lack of a damper stop! When it hit me I could not believe it. The renters had burned a long gas fire with the damper shut and the heat had to fill the firebox and created excessive temperatures behind the lintel. There must have been a breach in the mortar on the firebrick at the lintel (destroyed evidence) and the long term heat entered the wall cavity and the lack of a good air source created a smoldering fire inside the wall cavity. It was not until the neighbors came over and said that smoke is coming out of your roof around the chimney did anybody know that a fire was in progress.
The picture shows the fireplace with the mantel removed and the 2x4 wall cavity opened up to expose the cinder block chimney. The row of fire bricks over the lintel was now missing. Note the smoke stains on the cinder blocks. They start at the fire brick joint. The damper did not have a stop installed and the owner shared the renter's story. They had run the fireplace all night on Thanksgiving eve and the next morning the fire was still going when the neighbor's came knocking.
So how many of you knew what the results could be without the installation of a damper stop??? I have always shared that the major reason for the damper stop was to allow the exhaust gases to leave the home and if the gas was left on it would allow the gases to go on up the flue instead of into the home. Now I have a real tangible reason for installing a damper stop..... Actual damage!!!.... Recommend the addition of an inexpensive damper stop clamp to increase the safety of the fireplace unit.
I am amazed at how just creating a new topic discussed on our forums can open our eyes to what is actually going on around us. Two days after the previous dialogue took place I inspected a 1976 home that had neither aluminum siding nor aluminum roofing, yet the bonding discussion jumped out at me. I climbed up on the composition shingle roof and saw some professionally installed heat strip snow melt tapes. In fact they had four of these tapes installed all along the lower north facing roof and in the rain gutters. I see these often and didn't think much of them. Then I did my perimeter foundation look at the home and stopped to take a picture for all of you at the lower northeast downspout discharge...... How does our Electrified Siding discussion apply to what the pictures show???
Your Name:
For more information E-MAIL Us