It is a great day here in Orem, Utah. I'm still sore from last Friday's visit to Utah Lake before the normal workday started. That's right... Spring is here and that means it is time to break out the wakeboard, the slolam ski, and the knee board for some early morning fun. We've nicknamed our excursions The Dawn Patrol. The idea is simple...... get the boat in the water before the crack of dawn, have some fun, and still get back to the first inspection by 10 AM.
I mentioned that I was sore from The Dawn Patrol. Sore = Multi Faceplants, or S=MFP for short. If you have never experienced a face plant you can imagine a head-on collision in your car as your face hits the windshield. Or you can think back to when you tried a head first dive off the high dive with your hands firmly by your side. It turns out that over a long winter layoff from the sport you forget how important it is to let go of the rope as you are wiping out....... Ouch!!!
"Our Polybutylene pipes burst while we were away on vacation. When we came home, there was more than $100,000 in damage" The picture and quote are provided as a courtesy from www.Plumbing911.com.
I recently received the following e-mail from the www.Plumbing911.com folks. It said simply.....
Greetings from Alexandria, VA. I just found your site when I did a search for dip tube related information on the Lycos search engine. I thought that since your site was so buyer intensive you may want to take a look at ours.
http://www.Polybutylene.com (Explains many different issues relating to Polybutylene plumbing problems.)
http://www.911plumbing.com (Explains the details behind the new class action settlement pertaining to defective dip tubes.)
If you do get a brief second to visit our sites I would very much appreciate some feedback from a home inspectors perspective. Send me a note at jgriffith@plumbing911.com if you get the chance.
Thank you, John Griffith - Plumbing Express
The message was very short, but it restarted my search into the Polybutylene topic. I thought that I had a firm grasp on the topic, but now I have had to reconsider my stance. This new search into the topic helped to clarify a few points in my head. It is interesting because John Griffin's e-mail comments were directed to the faulty water heater Dip Tube issue and yet I walked away from his web site with a new perspective on Polybutylene pipe in general. The main point of their site did was to give some real life testimonials of the destruction that a concealed water leak can cause.
This week's MMM was billed as a return to Polybutylene. I have no intention of sharing a full internet search result on the topic. Instead, I will share with you some interesting information shared by a licensed Plumbing firm that specializes in copper plumbing replacement jobs. Plumbing Express runs both websites mentioned above. Let's take a look at the validity of the information that they share on this page of their site...... http://www.Polybutylene.com/realtor.html. I have edited out some of the non-interesting to Home Inspectors information.
One of the biggest problems facing real estate professionals is what to do about homes with Polybutylene. Some agents will not show a buyer a home with poly. If you're representing a buyer, you wouldn't want to sell your client a home with poly without them being made aware of the problems with poly.
Here are some facts you should note:
We've tried to outline some of the issues you are facing--or will be facing. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to call us. We also offer FREE presentations to real estate professionals, either in your office or at association meetings. Please call us for more details on presentations in your area.
What's going on? The bottom line is...Courts continue to move away from "Buyer Beware" defenses. Different jurisdictions have different statutory requirements regarding disclosure, but the general atmosphere in the legal system is away from Caveat Emptor. Judges are looking at "what is the right thing to do."
Stay ahead of the pack on this problem. As homes with poly age, the rate of poly leaks will increase dramatically. This is a multi-billion dollar problem in homes throughout the United States. Here are some tips to consider...
I cut out a lot......
E. Disclosure Issues -
I cut out a lot more.......
NOTE TO US INSPECTORS.....
F. IMPORTANT: If you rely on a Home Inspector's report that states the poly looks "okay", ask him if he will indemnify you if the poly pipes leak. And make sure he gives you a written indemnification.
4. In General:
I was really interested to read about the lawsuits. I wish that I knew how to access the records or search for newspaper articles on the outcomes. If you know how, please let me know the most effective way to do it. I'm really curious to know if this sentiment about Polybutylene is spreading across the nation. There has been very little mention of Polybutylene in my local market. Let's look at some of their claims on a fact sheet found at http://www.Polybutylene.com/selling.html. I will interject my thoughts
FACT: A home inspection cannot determine if poly is about to leak simply by looking at the outside of the pipe. Pipes deteriorate from the inside, and they can split under pressure.
FACT: Polybutylene pipes can leak anytime without warning - destroying furniture, family heirlooms, and even causing structural damage.
FACT: Homes with Polybutylene plumbing sell for less.
FACT: Homes with Polybutylene plumbing will decrease in value over time compared to those with copper plumbing.
FACT: Class action eligibility for financial assistance begins to expire when the home is 10 years old.
FACT: Insurance premiums could increase or insurance companies could limit coverage in homes with Polybutylene leak claims.
FACT: You may have no out-of-pocket expense to repipe a home. We can arrange for payment at the time of closing, for as little as $30 per month.
FACT: Sellers are often willing to split the cost of a repipe job in an attempt to expedite the sale of a home.
FACT: A copper repipe is about the same cost as a recarpet.
FACT: An average Plumbing Express repipe job takes less than a week.
TESTIMONIAL that makes Home Inspectors look bad.......
"My wife and I just purchased a home with Polybutylene pipes. Our home inspector told us our pipes looked fine. We of course believed him since we are first time homeowners and were excited about the prospect of buying our first home. However, after only one month, our ceiling in the laundry room began to leak and we also noticed a wet spot in our garage ceiling." ----Marc D. Fuson, Ohio
You have read previous accounts of an Agent in my area named Evelyn Johnson. She is the tall Agent that you never want to cross. She is honest and fights hard for her Client's best interest. She was the first Agent to tell me about a lawsuit from one of her clients over the Polybutylene pipe. Her clients bought a home with Polybutylene and learned about the Class Action Settlement after moving in. They were not happy and they did go back against the Sellers for non-disclosure. So far I have been unable to learn about all of the details, but the sheer fact that one of my favorite Agents has had a legal run in with Polybutylene makes my ears perk up and the little hairs on my back raise. About a 2 months ago Evelyn stated to me matter of factly that she will not allow one of her clients to buy another home with Polybutylene. Why?..... Because Evelyn Johnson avoids lawsuits at all cost and she sees the equation Polybutylene = Potential Lawsuit written clearly on the wall.
The following are myths that Plumbing Express shares about Polybutylene. As you read them please keep in mind that they are selling repiping jobs. The truth is that I have been guilty of perpetuating some of these myths over the years....
Myth 1: Only systems with plastic fittings have problems: Not true! Systems with metal fittings fail as well. However, it is true that systems with plastic fittings have more components that fail, and our experience tells us that they do indeed fail at a greater rate than systems with metal fittings or manifold-type systems. That said, both metal fitting systems and manifold systems contain Polybutylene piping as well as plastic valves, and both of these components are subject to failure. Basically, the distinction is one of "bad versus worse," not "good versus bad."
Myth 2: Replacing poly pipes costs an arm and a leg: Actually, replacing poly is about the same cost as recarpeting your home or putting on new roof shingles--providing you use a repipe specialist. A repipe specialist will provide you with the best price combined with the most professional workmanship. To put the cost of a repipe into context (including drywall and paint), it's usually much less than installing vinyl windows or basement waterproofing. It is unfortunate that you need to replace the pipes, but it really is similar to other maintenance items--just one you didn't expect so soon!
Myth 3: The class action settlement fund will take care of everything if you have a problem: All things considered, the class action settlements are very generous; the Cox v. Shell settlement was one of the largest consumer settlements in United States history. But, the settlements were a compromise, so neither side got everything they wanted. For example, significant limitations exist on eligibility for free pipe replacement, such as installation date and location of leak(s). (Note: You are strongly encouraged to contact the class facilities directly if you think you have a claim.)
Myth 4: Poly problems occur because of poor installation: Installation quality may be a factor in poly leaks, but in most cases installation does not appear to be the primary cause. Factors contributing to system leaks include degeneration of piping and/or fittings, water quality, chlorine levels, poor installation and age. Over time, some or all of these factors may contribute to system failure. So even with perfect installation, Polybutylene systems may likely fail at some point as a result of other factors.
Myth 5: Any good plumber can replace my pipes: True, any reputable plumbing company can install water supply piping professionally, but the real questions are, "Can they do the whole job for a fair price and at the least inconvenience to me?" A few general plumbing companies will do the whole job by subcontracting the drywall and paint, but a company that specializes in repipes is your best bet. They have the personnel to give you a quality job, and they will do it more efficiently, with less damage and inconvenience, and most importantly, for less cost.
Myth 6: I inspected my own pipes and they are fine: It doesn't take a pro to do the "Squeeze Test" (squeeze a pipe or fitting with your fingers: If it falls apart you have a BIG problem). But the "Squeeze Test" doesn't help much because it is very rare that a system becomes so decayed that it gets to this state of advanced degeneration before it leaks (maybe 1 in 1,000). The problem is this: Most failures occur in systems that look fine even to the trained eye, so a visual inspection is almost pointless. Yes, you should test your water pressure, but that is about all you can do.
Myth 7: The poly in my house has lasted for ten years, so it must be o.k.: Not true. In most cases it takes years for Polybutylene systems to fail. While it may leak within a few years of installation, the majority of leaks start to occur in the 10-15 year time frame.
Myth 8: You will not have a problem selling your home with poly: This depends on the awareness of the buyer or prospective buyer. In general, real estate agents tell us that homes with poly sell for less and take longer to sell. Frequently, a home inspector flags the problem, and the pipes are replaced before closing. Unfortunately, we do not know how many prospective buyers simply ignore homes with poly because they recognize it as a potential problem from the start.
Myth 9: If the pipes do leak, it's usually minor: How about $138,000 worth of damage from a leak that did not qualify the home for a free repipe. Of the homes we work in that have had a leak, about 80% had some form of structural damage. Frequently, the damage repair entails a sheet of drywall and some paint, or maybe carpet pad replacement, but many leaks have been catastrophic causing thousands of dollars of damage to both the structure and the contents.
Myth 10: My insurance will cover the resulting damages if the pipes leak: Absolutely--this is not a myth. Water damage of all sorts is typically covered by most policies, and in certain circumstances the class actions may even assist you. But the problem is that your insurer may decide to increase your premium after a claim (or multiple claims), or worse yet, they may not renew your policy. This can happen with any casualty (such as fire or wind damage), but there is no reason to set yourself up for this type of problem when you can avoid it in the first place.
Myth 11: My home inspector said the poly "looked" fine: It may "look" fine, but that doesn't mean much because most of the problems with poly systems are not visible. Basically, a home inspector can look for water leaking RIGHT NOW, he can look for evidence of repairs, and he can look for certain installation no-no's (only where pipes are exposed) such as kinks in the piping. That helps a little, but many things contribute to a poly leak, most all of which an inspector cannot see. What matters most is the useful life of the poly in a home, and an inspector cannot predict this for any poly system.
Myth 12: The pipe replacement work will practically destroy my home: That depends. Pipe replacement is serious work, and if you choose the wrong company to do it, they could make quite a mess. However, a reputable pipe replacement expert knows how to minimize damage to walls and ceilings, so the disruption and the time it takes to complete the job is minimized. The average home should take about five days start to finish, and after that you should see no signs of the work ever being done--that is the real test!
The question of whether or not Polybutylene is an item worth making an issue of during your Home Inspecting process is easily answered by visiting http://www.Polybutylene.com/test.html. All it takes is one view of the damage to this one case of a Polybutylene leak and I quickly realized that I did not want this to occur to any of my inspection clients. I now approach Polybutylene the same way I do main floor and upstairs laundry rooms that do not have drip pans or floor drains. I have become hated by some Agents when I make an issue of Polybutylene, no drip pans, as well as interior water heaters installed with no emergency floor drain nearby.
As for Plumbing Express, they are not a National franchise. They have a few East Coast businesses, but none in my part of the country. This leads me to question my area as to whether or not there are any local professionals who do Polybutylene removal upgrades as well as Plumbing Express appears to. This is something that I will have to investigate further. How about in your areas??? Is Polybutylene replacement big business in your neck of the woods? With a 15 year legal lifespan what do you report when you encounter a 20 year old house with original Polybutylene??? Who would you refer your Clients to if they were looking for a copper conversion???
Brent Foster has told me repeatedly over the years that the biggest destructor to homes is water. Whether it is rain water, surface water, underground water, or leaking plumbing fixtures, the water damage is what creates a majority of the lawsuits that a Home Inspector encounters.
One of the sages of our group, Jon Gudnason, shared the following advice for sticking to your guns and accurately disclosing the needed information to your Clients without being concerned about the flack you might receive from those pushing for closure on the sale of the home.....
Don't be so concerned with trying not to scare your clients that you fail to inform them accurately of the situation. This pipe has a VERY POOR history. It is more likely than not to fail sooner or later. There has been a large class action suit settled over this issue. Money is available to replace the pipe. The person making the claim has only to provide documentation of one leak due to the pipe and they can have it all replaced with copper. The money is there now, I don't know how long it will last. Jon Gudnason - Placerville, CA
Gary Kneeland posted the following Class Action Settlement information many moons ago.....
In regards to Polybutylene; I received a little packet in the mail from Consumer Plumbing Recovery Center, P.O. Box 869006 Plano, Texas 75086-9006 For questions call: 1-800-392-7591 or visit site http://www.pbpipe.com
The little packet that I received has colored pictures of the pipe and fitting that are involved. It appears that this class action settlement covers plumbing installations which took place between 1978 and 1995. There also appears to be date of purchase requirements to be met. Good luck. Gary Kneeland
I agree with Gary, the packet is well worth ordering since it contains the pictures of the Polybutylene fittings and piping that are and are not covered by the Class Action Settlements.
Ken Jones asked the question...... I have a 1977 mobile home with gray (almost silver gray) plastic water supply lines, I'm not sure if they are the "Polybutylene" water lines that have all the failures. I couldn't read anything on the lines to give me a clue. Is there only one type of plastic water line made during this time or could it be another approved or ok type water supply line?????
Just another bit about Polybutylene piping: We have a large amount of mobile's in our area with poly. For the most part it was the fittings that failed, however the flexible gray tubing was also inferior and pin hole leaks would spring up. When I do an inspection that has poly. I inform them there have been some problems with this type of piping in the past and recommend they check fittings and piping occasionally to insure theirs is still working satisfactory. Try to cover my hiney and not overly scare the perspective buyer.
PS The holes in the pipe itself were almost always on the hot side. Have a good one everyone. Cathy Rehbock - CA
Please keep in mind that Ken Jone's question was posed in April of 1999. It is embarrassing to post my response to Ken at that time..... Let's read my response and laugh together.......
Ken: You've got Polybutylene..... Say no more...... The issue is not so much with the pipe as it is with the fittings. They still use PB in our area today, but it is the manifold/home run style installations.
Okay..... So I have since learned that many of the current leaks are from the pipe itself and not near the joints.
PB's main issue is the leaks at the joints and splices. The worst was the aluminum crimp rings with the plastic elbows and splices. The next worst case is the copper crimp rings with the plastic elbows and splices. I have found copper crimp rings and copper or brass splices and elbows to be quite reliable in our area.
While some of this is true.... I still am not sure of how well the pipe is holding up in our area. There is really no sure source for plumbing leak stats in Northern Utah.
Keep in mind.... Mobile Homes are built cheap. That is not a rip on them..... Its just the fact. Mobile Homes are the biggest source of failed PB, yet probably one of the easiest structures to retrofit new lines.
Truth... Crystal truth!!! Mobile homes are cheap..... They are pretty straight forward to retrofit also.
As a rule for identification...... All old the gray pipe is PB. The newer blue, red and white plastic lines are PEX which stands for Cross linked polyethylene. Hope this helps. Michael Leavitt
I have changed my stance on the product to include the fact that Polybutylene is prone to leakage. Consideration should be given to upgrading the plumbing to prevent future flooding. It is also recommended that Home Inspectors refer back upon the August 23, 1999 issue of the Monday Morning Messenger for details on the Class Action Settlement details. It is also recommended that you contact http://www.Polybutylene.com and get an information kit. The Class Action settlement kit is also very informative at http://www.kinsella.com/pbpipe/propset.shtml. Please let me know what your feelings are on the issue.
After last week's issue of the MMM I was really conscious of the Water Pressure topic during my inspections last week. The tally was astonishing. Out of 10 inspections only 3 of the homes had "Water Pressure" below 80 psi. 7 of the homes had pressures that pegged my 110 psi dial scale. Of these seven homes 6 of them did not have pressure regulators installed.
I live in an area where many of the homes prior to 1970 were built in areas where the "Water Pressure" from the water mains in the street was lucky if it was near 80 psi. Pressure regulators were not the norm. As these separated areas became filled in with more and more homes, the Cities had to increase there water systems and increase the overall psi from the street.
After giving the topic more thought I realized that I could do pretty well without a pressure gauge by just taking the time to identify the lack of , presence of, the pressure regulator..... That isn't Rocket Science, but I went for hundreds of inspections without giving thought to reporting on the presence of a water pressure regulator.
While I was sorting through my e-mail archive this past week looking for Polybutylene information I found Jon Gudnason's original posting about testing "Water Pressure".
This question has been discussed in length in the past. If it is not a good idea to use a simple water pressure gauge why should we use a plug in circuit tester?
Why use a thermometer to test HVAC temperatures. Excessive water pressure can damage or shorten the life of valves, seats and diaphragms, such as in dishwashers and washing machines. It is a simple test. I didn't do it for years and no one ever got mad at me, I suppose they just never found out they had high pressure. Once I started checking pressure I have found it to be above 80 psi in about ten percent of the homes I inspect. The clients are always happy to know this additional piece of information. It gives them additional value for the money they spend. It is not required by AII™ standards and nobody is required to do it. It is required by the standards of some other organizations.
As to the liability issue, I don't believe in the idea that you will be held responsible for exceeding the standards in one area and not another. I have never heard of anyone being hurt by this particular mythical liability monster. Most of us, if not all, exceed the standards in some way each inspection. Jon Gudnason - Placerville, CA
Jon was responding to a warning about the liability monster from Bill Ball.....
So are we in AII™ now going to add pressure gauges to our list of necessary "tools" along with the moisture meter? WHY? If you think it's a good idea, where will you stop? Perhaps with a radioactive lead paint detector at $10,000.00? -- I know Michael you've found a place to get it for only $6k, and Dan Back has already proven its effectiveness ;-)) HA! Bill Ball - Founding Chairman
This week's AII™ Photo Challenge is a continuation from last week's. It is interesting to read the responses to the Photo Challenges when very little guidance is given as to what you should comment on. The answer is always so obvious when you already know what the answer is. So I apologize for not drawing the focus in a little clearer..... So to help you out the condition is now shown much closer up and the key word is "Bonding"... 1) What is wrong in this photo? 2) How would you report on this condition? 3) What else do you report on for jetted tubs?
"Now what do ya think?"
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