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It's a great day at Michael Leavitt & Co Home Inspections. Today's edition of the MMM is the longest edition ever produced. It is a tribute edition to the fine group of Home Inspector's with whom I associate online via the internet. I threw out a plea for help with my "Black Iron Pipe" callback situation. The responses shared in this edition of the MMM came from the "A.I.I.™ Inspector Hotline" and Walter Jower's "Best of HI" internet forums.
I have taken the liberty to compile all of the E-mail responses below. It only took 9 hours to do it, but the final compilation is well worth the effort. I have done it as a way of saying thank you. First though, I have taken the time to share the details of the return visit to the home of the supposed "Black Iron" water main. I have included pictures so that it will be easy for all to understand........ Once again, thanks to all of those that have contributed, I hope that you enjoy it.
NOTE: If you would prefer that I not use you comments, please e-mail me and I will remove them from the account. On the other hand, if you like the finished product please send along your kudos.
DODGING
THE BULLETSI have always loved to receive mail. You never know if you are going to win a $1,000,000 from Ed McMahon, get a letter of thanks from an inspection client, or receive a paycheck from an out-of-state client. Occasionally, a letter is delivered deserving special attention. First the doorbell rings. Seeing that it is your friendly postman, you stoll casually to the door. Then you see the clipboard and the "Certified" letter..... This makes your heart sink. Only one thing that I know of that comes in a "Certified" letter and that is heartache.
As most of you are aware, two Saturday's ago the following "Certified" letter brought heartache into our home. It read as follows.....
Date: 4/9/99
Subject: Negligent Inspection
Reference: Inspection #7168A for 1045 N. Homestead Drive, Midway, UT.
Dear Michael,
In an effort to find the cause of the low water flow problem at the subject property I have found little or no flow from the main water supply line stubbed up through the slab floor. This water line is clearly visible as black iron pipe similar, if not identical, to the type used to supply natural gas and not galvanized pipe as called out by the subject report.
This pipe will need to be replaced with a line suitable for the intended purpose in order to have adequate flow.
In accordance with your service agreement, the property can be made accessible for your re-inspection by calling us at xxx-xxxx for an appointment.
Sincerely, William Stern
If that doesn't make your heart skip a beat, I don't know what will. I later posted this message to the Inspector Forums.......
Forum:
The "Certified Letter" came in the mail today from a past client who wants my money. The inspection was done back in July 1998. The client is complaining of low water flow through the main line. He says that I incorrectly identified the water main as being galvanized and it turned out to be black iron gas line.
This catches me totally off guard because I have no clue if water can be run through black iron with ill effects. I never have given it any thought. I have not revisited the property and I have no idea if I identified it wrong or not. Will black iron pipe corrode quicker??? I need some guidance before I tackle this issue Monday morning.... Michael Leavitt
The amount of Feedback was incredible. It became a lesson in water supplies and piping systems. I will share some of the responses later in this edition. My wife made the scheduling call Monday morning and Friday evening was agreed upon as the return date. I posted this response to the Forums...
I'm betting with Walter and appreciate his support. I have been way too busy to respond to all of the great replies on the Forums. My wife called to schedule the return visit and she said that she had never been so sweet to a person in her whole life. My wife calling his wife..... Shelly said that she did not want to give them any reason to be mad at us. Afterall, I am returning to help resolve the situation.
I will be returning Friday evening so there is plenty of time for everybody to book their bets with Walter. The discussions on the forums have allowed me to come to grips with the worst case scenario as well as the best case. During Shelly's conversation it was learned that the new buyers have been remodeling the place since buying it 10 months ago. They still don't yet live in the place. It is a 9 -10 year old house and not 20 like I originally told all of you..... my inspection report confirmed this. It will be interesting to find out whether the discovery came to light as they ripped out a covered section or not. I'm still thinking that it is galvanized with a failed regulator. When the regulator goes bad, the flow drops off to nil.
If it is black pipe then I'll pay up..... Funny though..... I've never been called on the carpet for mis-identifying something. Usually the upset client is mad because a component failed prematurely or it failed just like I told them it would in the report... On the other hand, the agents complain because I am overly thorough in my reporting...... I'll keep you informed and hope that those who bet against me lose big..... Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
THE
RETURN VISITBy Friday evening, I was finishing an already busy day and mentally fatigued. I picked up my wife Shelly to head on up to Midway. The drive to get their is 23 miles up beautiful Provo Canyon. I was calm as Shelly and I discussed the options that might take place. She had no idea what my game plan was. As a result of the many great responses that I received from the USA and Canada, I had resigned myself to the following two scenarios....
We were
right on schedule when we pulled up to the large home. It didn't
appear that anybody was there yet and we knew that the client's
were also driving up to meet us. As we walked up to the door,
we saw the clients pull into the long driveway. I was apprehensive,
but I had been coached very well by my wife. Shelly prepped me
by saying that they were going to be very tense and would try
to read my disposition and reflect it back at me. If I was short,
curt, or rude, then it was going to be a very tense blood bath.
If, however, I could keep my cool and act as though I was there as a support and actually trying to find out what was going on, then they would respond the same. Shelly also said that people are much firmer in letters. When forced with a face-to-face confrontation, many people will back down dramatically.
As they pulled up
and parked, I smiled and approached their 4x4. The wife would
not make eye contact through the windshield. The husband got out
and I cheerfully extended my hand with a "How
are you doing tonight?" Then I followed with "This is my wife, Shelly."
The ice was broken as he shook Shelly's hand and by then his wife
was out of the care and he introduced her to Shelly.
I then said.... "Let's go inside and see what is going on." With that we unlocked the door and headed inside into the entry way. I mumbled something like.... "Oh yeah, I remember this place. Isn't the service area around there???" Mr. Stern lead the way, followed by me and then came the two tense wives. I walked immediately up to the closet and my heart sank very deeply as Mr. Stern pointed to the very obvious black pipe coming up through the slab.
I kneeled
down and looked at the black pipe and the copper pipe coming up
through the slab next to one another. There was a monstrosity
of copper water lines and black gas lines and it was not clear
what was what. I was quickly trying to assess which was the water
main and whether or not the main was the copper line.... "No.,
the copper line isn't it," I thought. I then saw the regulator,
shut-off valve, main electrical ground and black pipe.
Flustered,
but trying to act confident, I realized that the black pipe was
actually the water main......... Wait a minute........ The water
main comes up through the slab encased by a yellow teflon/plastic
sleeve. Sure enough, it is as black as the ace of spades. Wait
a minute...... There is an 1/8" x 1/8" piece of gray
area at the top of the black near the valve. Hey, I remember scraping
back this coating ten months ago...... "Well,
look at this!" I said. "This
is actually galvanized pipe coated with a black protective tar-like
coating." Everybody was listening intently as
I sprang up to let Mr. Stern see for himself. I restrained the
back handsprings, but the disposition in the room immediately
changed.
At the
point of my "galvanized"
declaration, Shelly knew that we were off the hook. She turned
to Mrs. Stern and started talking about anything and everything.
It came out in the conversation that the Stern's planed to turn
the home into a bed and breakfast. Shelly took this bit of info
and started running with. This was used as a distraction that
Shelly felt was best. They left the two of us alone to talk about
the low water flow situation for about 35 minutes. They became
like best friends.
Meanwhile I took a tour of the house with Mr. Stern. There were two upstairs bathrooms and I did a flow test on each. Nothing technically exhaustive, just running the showers, sinks and flushing the toilets at the same time. There was definitely restricted flow, yet if used one at a time, there was still sufficient flow for a decent shower. I went outside and tried the hose bib. For some reason this was the least powerful location. Keep in mind that this really wasn't a big issue because the lawn watering was provided by a separate pressurized irrigation system. The garden hose would be used to wash cars only.
Next I went into the kitchen and turned on the faucet. The flow was very restricted. I could see that Mr. Stern was a thinking man and was watching my every evaluation. He was not confrontational and instead very inquisitive. I unscrewed the aerator from the faucet and then turned the water on and there was much better flow. I then showed Mr. Stern the little rust and rock particles that were clogging up the aerator holes. We cleaned the holes and reinstalled the aerator for a much better flow...... Not great, but much better. Mr. Stern was drawing his own conclusions because he realized that I was not negligent.... This was truly his "PROBLEM."
I then took the time to ask him what steps he had taken to diagnose the situation. He said that they had removed the interior joint with the water main before the pressure regulator and slowly opened the interior water shut-off. He said that they had expected a geyser and actually received a trickle. The city reported to him that there was up to 150 lbs pressure at the street, although he had not tested the pressure at the interior shut-off. Instead, he had tested the pressure at the hose bib and it was 40 lbs. Mr. Stern was well-versed in the fact that there could be a hundred pounds of pressure and still very little flow. This is a principle that I still don't understand: Static Pressure vs. Functional Flow, yet I will take the experts word for it.
We went out into the front yard to look at the main meter/shut-off. Sure enough, at the meter it was galvanized heading towards the house. When we came back inside I asked him if he had shut the water off at the exterior and then removed the interior valve? Mr. Stern said "No." I speculated with him that by doing this test, he could actually see inside the possible corroded galvanized pipe. At this point the light was going off in his own head and he said..... "You know, when you removed the kitchen sink aerator the rust and silt could have clogged the interior shut-off valve. I think that I will do as you said and remove the valve and hook up a hose to the exterior and see if I can't flush the line." I can't tell you how thrilled I was to hear him say that.
I speculated further that he ought to check with the local officials to see if other people were having premature clogging of galvanized water mains. I even shared with him that there might be a long-forgotten 10-year builder's warranty on the place since it was only 8 to 9 years old. When I shared with him that the typical lifespan for galvanized laterals is 40 to 60 years, he could see that the valve was looking more and more suspect. He was actually busy solving the puzzle in his own mind. This type of client is always a joy for me to deal with. Usually our clientele is clueless and wants you to tell them everything. Like drones, they are incapable of figuring things out for themselves. Mr. Stern was definitely a thinker, and I knew that I was off the hook.
The crowning moment
was as the women came back into the service area and Mr. Stern
led his wife through our findings. I was pretty much silent, but
smiling, as he told her about the outside and upstairs bathroom
flow test. He capped it off by showing his wife the greatly improved
flow at the kitchen sink now that the aerator was cleared. It
was at that point that I first leaned of their plans to turn this
home into a Bed & Breakfast. When the wife said that, I confidently
said...... "A Bed & Breakfast!
In that case you are going to need a 2" water main upgrade
with four 50 gallon water heaters side by side so that each room
can have its own jetted tub." With that, everybody
laughed and we chit chatted about another personal project that
the Stern's had undertaken.
Relieved, Shelly and I went out for a steak dinner. The debriefing with Shelly was very beneficial for me. Although I had gone through the week as though all would be okay, there was still a nagging stress that was emotionally draining. Looking in the bathroom mirror at the steakhouse after the adrenalin rush of the situation had worn off, it was quite obvious....... I was beat. Shelly shared the situation from her perspective. She praised me for my positive attitude. She said that as she heard me say "Well look at this! This is actually galvanized pipe coated with a black protective tar like coating." She knew that all was well. She said that at that point that she looked at Mrs. Stern and said, "I don't know why I'm trying to look at the pipe. I wouldn't know if it was galvanized or not!" With that, Mrs. Stern agreed and they went on a little gabbing tour of the home.
AFTERMATHI have pondered all week over what I could have done better. In fact, I secretly harrowed up my soul looking for a sure fire way to keep this situation from ever happening again. This was especially tough because throughout the week I had yet to know if I was guilty or not. I had asked Inspectors abroad for any sure-fire test to identify galvanized over black iron. As we all know, there are many installations where it is hard to tell the difference. Just 2 hours before my Midway return visit, I found myself in the service basement of a 1953 home. The home's original heat was from a coal fired boiler. As I looked at the home's galvanized supply system on the ceiling of the service room, all the pipes were black. They were not quite as black as gas pipe, but they were dark. Logic told me that the heavy dark areas on the floor joist, subfloor and piping was caused by residue from the old coal- fired furnace.
I reported the lines as dark pipe and that I was unable to verify whether galvanized or black iron, it was easy to do without fear of repercussion from agents, sellers or buyers because the whole water supply system was shot and my bigger recommendation was for a complete supply system upgrade. I am still wondering though because I have yet to encounter any Inspector's account of actually finding black pipe used for water supply.
THE
THUMBNAIL TESTThe final test for galvanized pipe of which I am extremely confident is the "Thumbnail Test." This is a technically exhaustive verification test for identifying the composition of galvanized pipe vs. black pipe. It will not work in every case, but when a galvanized pipe has been coated with a black protective goo it works very well.
First,
make sure that your thumbnail has not been recently trimmed.
If it has been trimmed, then you will not have a built-in collection
reservoir.
PLEASE NOTE: The standards for the technically exhaustive "Thumbnail Test" are being submitted to the ASTM for general acceptance and EPA approval is forthcoming..... ROTFLOL
INSPECTOR'S
FEEDBACKThe feedback was fantastic and I felt that it should be compiled for future reference. I wish to thank all of those that contributed to educating me on my black pipe vs. galvanized pipe quandary.
Noel McShane from Georgia was first to respond with...
You should never run water through black iron pipe, must be galvanized. Always check and report even short sections of black pipe or fittings. Doesn't and never did meet code.....Ooops the code word, sorry Industry standards (ASHI code words for code).
I was really concerned and sent back to Noel...
Noel: If and since this is true, how did the plumber not know this.... Am I somehow responsible 10 months later because I reported it as galvanized...... I appreciate your input. Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
Tony Devine from Pennsylvania piped in (All pun intended)...
Michael, My old CABO (1986) section P-2104.2-2 lists acceptable underground water supply piping materials. Black iron is not among 'em. I think maybe you blew this one. I always tell a client with any iron water pipes that he'll have to replace them soon. Tony Devine - PA
Next, Our Canuck Inspector from Canada checked in with...
Michael: I have never seen black pipe used in this fashion. Is it possible this guy had an 'expert' give him these facts? Even if it was truly galvanized, there should be some expectation of reduced flow. Bill Mullen - Sarnia, Ontario
I was running all of the options through my mind and responded to Bill with.....
It will be interesting..... He said in the letter that he found little or no flow from the main water line stubbed up through the concrete slab floor. He said that the water line was clearly black iron pipe. Now it will be interesting to see if I assumed that this was the gas main coming into the service area. It will also be interesting to see if it is actually the water main. I can't ever remember seeing black pipe used on water lines on any inspection.... Or I would have said something. My assumption has always been that the black pipe was more and who would ever substitute it for galvanized. It will be interesting to find out who identified this for him..... I also hope that he has not already made the repair, thus eliminating the evidence.
Now let's say that on Monday I return and actually find black pipe. If it was never allowed, why would it have originally passed Code Inspection??? Why would a knowledgeable plumber use this stuff??? The home is a resort home located in Midway, Utah. It was about 4,000 square feet and about 20 years old. I can't imagine a plumber running Black pipe from the street 150 feet to the home.... It just doesn't make sense. But even if he did..... I am trying to figure out why I need to buy the guy an entire water main hook-up.
I have Allen E&O with the $1,000 deductible.... I use a good Service Agreement with an Arbitration Clause...... So what next??? I can't imagine that the city would have approved a black pipe connection at the meter..... I can't imagine that the entire line is run in black pipe...... The worst part about the service room is that it is in the middle of the home and the pipe comes up through the slab..... Could it be that only a small section is black pipe??? Could it be that he thinks the gas main is actually the water main??? There are so many variables....
What I do know for sure is that the water flow was adequate during the inspection...... I do know that I didn't hear from this guy for 10 months and the first contact was through the Certified Mail...... So what if it actually is Black Pipe...... Do I pay?.... Do I enforce the arbitration... Does Allen pay my settlement above the $1,000??? Do I just give the guy Allen's phone # and leave it is his lap??? And what if the pipe is actually galvanized and the guy now has poor water flow..... It has been 10 months..... That is the nature of galvanize pipe.
Please play the "What If" game with me so that I can find dome peace of mind and have some options laid out before me come Monday...... Thanks..... I have got to get into the archives and find the actual report now. Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
Noel McShane responded with a lot of interjection regarding his hopes that I had clauses in my Service Agreement to protect me. He finished off with.......
Slow down, breathe deeper.......don't panic.....
1. Resolve yourself to the fact that if it is visible and you missed it, you may be liable. Now consider what that means...... Do you pay the deductible and hand it off to your insurance carrier or do you just pony up.....? If it's not much more than the deductible, pony up.
That's your worse case scenario..............remember that and stay cool.... Breathe deep.... have a nice scotch and say Phahhh..... what's a thousand bucks........ my kids could be sick.........It could be a ten thousand dollars, it could be more...
Best case is that you are not at fault,....... Chill.......#@$% happens.....turn it into humor and you'll find you'll laugh too.....if not sooner then later.
Also add to your report a section defining type off supply pipe as it enters the house. GAHI standards require it. If you had it in your report you'd look at the report and KNOW what that pipe was.
These type of additions to the report do not increase your liability but can reduce it. If it's not visible, say so. Good luck and don't fret it. Noel McShane - GA
Walter Jowers from Nashville shared this response while interjecting to my post. It is a little disjointed because It was an interspersed response......
I wouldn't be so sure the homeowner or his "expert" got this right.
This is that gray "to the best of my knowledge" area. If I saw black pipe, I'd assume it was gas pipe. Not unlike a doctor seeing spurting blood and thinking, "artery" rather than thinking, "vein, with an intermittent obstruction." Common sense and years of observation say black pipe is gas pipe. Another doc analogy: They often say, "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras." Black iron water pipe would be a zebra.
Our contract sez if the customer does this, he has waived any right to recover. Enforceable? Hasn't been tested.
Re insurance: You do what your policy says you have to do, which is probably either report it or forfeit your chance to be insured on the matter. If this were our contract, the customer would have to pay for arbitration. If he lost, he'd be liable for our legal fees.
I think my smartypants lawyer would say this: Even if you mis-identified the pipe, even if it should never have been installed, you're only liable for the dollar difference between what you said it was (20-year-old galvanized pipe with adequate flow, good enough to draw no complaints for 10 months) and what it is (assume it's 20-year-old black iron, with adequate flow at the time of the job, now corroded). The difference is what you're arguing about. The rest is all emotion and bullshit.
Long story short, the difference is negligible, and the customer can never prove any different.
I'd offer to refund the fee for a general release. If the customer didn't go for that, he could try to win the difference in court. A smart lawyer will tell him it just ain't worth it. I'd tell him that, too. Your customer comes out ahead by accepting a refund.
By the way, I'd probably make the offer without even going back to look at the house. Walter Jowers - Nashville, TN
Larry Hoytt from Marin County, CA shared.....
Michael: Don't worry too much about what the owners "expert" says until you can go out, look at the situation and determine if you missed something, identified it wrong, etc. Don't forget your camera.
I would first look at your report and see what you actually said about the incoming service. Did you specifically identify it as galvanized steel?, where you silent on the issue? or can you find a second stub-up that is galvanized that would explain why you called it what you did?
Remember that if you made a specific representation regarding what the line was you may eat it if you were wrong. Your liability for misrepresenting what was there is completely independent of building code, the condition of the pipe, and the fact that it has a reduced flow. I have seen several comments responding to you suggesting that it has been 10 months and galvanized pipe does this, why didn't the code bozos pick it up when it was installed?, etc. NONE of that makes a difference if you misrepresented what it was.
If you were silent on the issue and just indicated that the supply lines were copper or galvanized, you may be ok because even if the incoming service line is black iron, you can indicate you were talking about the lines in the building serving the fixtures, etc. and advise them that you did not make any representations regarding the incoming service line (if you didn't).
Good luck. Make sure you go out there being Mr. Nice Guy and are there to "help" the client resolve his problem. If they come at you, diffuse the issue by advising that you all need to identity the facts and figure out how to improve the situation. You can worry about "liability" later, after the facts are known.
You may also bring a plumber with you that you trust when you check it out on Monday. I would also remember to take copious notes and have them transcribed. They can later be very handy if push comes to shove. Just don't forget that your notes are discoverable and should reflect the issues from your perspective and advantage.
If you have coverage, I would notify the carrier immediately. If you go ahead and start negotiating with the client and it later falls apart and blows up in your face, the carrier may say "you have started it, it is now your problem". Most carriers are happy to let you pursue it for yourself before getting them involved. Larry Hoytt - Marin County, CA
Betty Buckley from Oregon shared....
Michael, I do not know the answer to your question but I do know how it feels to receive that notification of a pending lawsuit. I also received notice on a Friday afternoon and had the entire weekend to worry before I could contact anyone. Some sleepless nights followed, I worried about my reputation, my livelihood and all those things I had worked so hard for. The following week I was given the opportunity to return to the property with the realtor, his Broker and a representative of the buyers. I made two additional visits to speak with a contractor who had been hired to do a remodel of the property.
I quickly learned that I did not have adequate insurance coverage, (which I do now; through Marion Allen) and so contacted a very good attorney. My attorney was great. The Realtor and Broker stood behind me, my attorney did her job, and I wrote her a check every month for two years. In the end I made a small settlement $2500 at my attorney's suggestion to end the whole charade. Another very respected Broker told me, "If you haven't been sued you're not working hard enough."
Moral of the story: Get a good attorney, let the attorney do his/her job and continue to work like the professional you are. This, unfortunately, is part of doing business. The larger the volume you are doing, the more chance you have of being sued. I have learned that I can even walk through this and make it to the other side. It did not hurt my business at all. In fact ,may have helped some, (buts that's another story) Good luck. Betty Buckley - Midland, OR
Michael, I have NEVER seen black pipe used as water supply lines. That does not mean it may not happen..Galvanized pipe was used as supply lines during the 1940 era in my area. However I have never seen black pipe used. What was the age of the property, where the black pipe was used as supply lines???? Please keep informed as to the results of this. Bill Schwahn - Montana
By this time I had a chance to find the report. I then shared......
Bill & the Forum:
I went into the boxed archives and found the report. The home is only 9 years old and sits across the street from the Homestead Resort in Midway, Utah. It had public water and sewer. The piping in question is not the main interior supply lines, but the actual water main from the meter 100 to 150 feet to the interior of the home. The long distance and the fact that the line comes up through the slab in the middle of the slab on grade home complicates the issue.
The fact that the home is newer and in a resort, but public area it would surprise me if the pipe actually turns out to be black pipe. The interior supply pipes are copper.
I am trying to scan my memory for the actual piping. If I identified it as 3/4" galvanized it means that I saw it. The service closet was a dark area and the rest of the home was copper. Identifying that the main was not copper or plastic was easy..... I never have even considered that one might be black pipe...... Have any of you ever seen a black pipe supply line??? I don't even have that as one of the selections in my computer generated reports. I will be adding the comment to my system though and my eyes and ears will be perked up the 5 or more times a week that I encounter something other than copper for the water main.
Do any of you have any sure test to identify galvanized over black pipe??? Some galvanized lines are dark and dirty..... I think that I'll go downstairs to my gas dryer that has both black pipe and galvanized and try a scrape test...... Do they look the same in the scraped areas?..... Who knows.... I'll let you know what I find out. Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
Scott Merritt from Grass Valley, CA shared a great list of questions to consider....
Michael; This seems very strange to me. To my knowledge black pipe is never used for water service, certainly not in an underground installation. It would certainly corrode on the outside surface. I can't say how the inside would react any differently than galvanized pipe or whether it could effect water flow.
Questions that come to mind:
I wish you well. Scott Merritt - Grass Valley, CA
Ken Jones shared some good advice for any callback situation....
Michael: In years past it is my understanding that they coated the black "gas" line with a non corrosive material on the inside. However I sure you don't remember but the water line could of been painted on the outside and you noted metal pipe and concluded Galvanized as we all would of. I wouldn't tackle it "first thing Monday morning", Review the letter, what do they want from you besides your money. Have they "fixed" this condition.
I would only offer to come and evaluate, Don't take your report, advise them you will find your report in the attic and be in communication with them. (Unless it is cut and dry that "your were right and they were wrong" ) Come home and evaluate the situation.
I know you didn't ask for this advise but I give it with some experience. Good luck, keep us advised. Ken Jones - Palo Cedro, CA
Larry Hoytt played the Devil's Advocate......
I am going to be the devils advocate here. You need to think of these issues from the clients perspective if you are going to effectively defend yourself, whether the claims are justified or frivolous. IF you know where they are coming from you can design your approach more effectively.
The client paid you for information they needed and relied upon the information to make a decision regarding their purchase. If they were given information that was erroneous, they will claim that you misrepresented the property to them and that "if" they had been given the correct information they may have made a different decision regarding the terms of their purchase.
Now, if you gave them information that is not correct, accept the fact that you unintentionally misrepresented an aspect of the property to them. If that is the case, you have to come clean with the fact that you miss-called the pipe and suggest that you will be glad to help the client find out what the problem is and how it can be rectified. For instance, if the house is only 9 years old, you should offer to check the original "approved" plans and specifications to see of black iron was specified. If for some strange reason it was, you are off the hook if the installation was conforming with the "approved" plans. If, on the other hand, copper was specified and they installed black iron, the client, the former owner and you all have claims of indemnification against the builder.
I guess the bottom line is that the client DOES have recourse against you for misrepresenting what was there; however, the original builder would also have liability for installing the wrong stuff. Does any of this make sense to you? Larry Hoytt - Marin County CA
Larry's comments changed the focus of the discussion on one forum to the legal aspect. Walter Jowers responded....
Larry, I'm curious. How would this
actually play out in California? (Okay, I mean
how do you *think* it would play out...)
Here in #@%backwards Tennessee, you don't get punished just for making an error. The error has to have cost somebody something. Like if I let a dog out of its pen, and it gets run over, I'm liable for the depreciated value of one dog, not the owners' "emotional distress."
If this case made it to court here, the judge would likely award -- at most -- the difference in the value of depreciated galvanized pipe and depreciated black iron pipe. There's not much difference. Each has a finite lifetime, each has a predictable total cost of ownership. I can't imagine that the difference would be more than a few hundred bucks. That's what the homeowner would get here, if the judge didn't just throw the case out. Walter Jowers - Nashville TN
Seeing a very ethical side of Noel McShane in following posts, I gained a great deal of respect for him....
No way it'd get thrown out, not here anyway.
I agree with Larry on the liability. They hire US to give them info, they expect US to KNOW black pipe for water supply is no-no. If it was VISIBLE to the HI and he goofed, he's liable. As for the Builder issue, etc., shoot guys, we are talking around a thousand bucks here. You'd spend that on Lawyers trying to trace the damn Builder. By the way, If you goof, and you know you goofed, don't play weasel games. Own up, pony up. Sometimes we ARE liable. Noel McShane - GA
Larry Hoytt interjected this response to Walter Jower's.....
Same thing in Michael's case. If the client is out-of-pocket for a condition that was erroneously reported in his report, he will potentially be found liable for at least a percentage of the loss. After all, had the condition been reported correctly, the client would have had the "opportunity" to alter his transaction to reflect the condition that was a problem. Now, we all know that this is bullshit because even if Michael had told the people that they had black iron and this stuff was nonconforming, etc. etc., they would still have bought the place for the same price and would have no recourse. But....the erroneous reporting gives them the opportunity to claim they WOULD have bargained differently. That is an argument that we know is bull#$%@ but also can not be proven fallacious.
Not here. My guess is that a judge would stick it to Michael for negligence, the prior owner for failing to disclose the condition if they had any way of knowing it existed and the builder for doing it wrong in the first place.
This is all a moot point if it is black iron and performing adequately. No harm - no foul. I was under the impression that the owner was making a claim against Michael because he had a problem as a result of the black iron. I agree that he has no real claim if there is no resulting problem. It is what it is. Larry Hoytt - Marin County CA
Larry then responded to Noel's comments on our liability as Home inspectors......
I agree with Noel as far as the liability issue. IF you screwed up and you know you screwed up, turn it into a PR expense and volunteer to help make it right. Your share of the damage should be proportionate of course. Sometimes you can make some great lemonade out of this type of lemon if you handle it properly.
However, remember, if there has been no financial or performance loss as a result of your error, they will have a hard time proving damages. Just because it is nonconforming does not automatically mean it will be a problem for the owner during his ownership.
I guess you could argue that if it causes a reduced flow or pressure you will be responsible for a portion of the expense of correction; however, if there is no loss of pressure and flow, their only loss may be diminished value when they sell. IF that is the case, tell them you will pay a percentage of the correction if they will pay you a percentage of the value increase in the property when it sells. Larry Hoytt - Marin County CA
Jon Gudnason from Sacramento, California shared this advise and even included a priceless "Hold Harmless" agreement. I did not previously have the text for this type of agreement, but now it is archived........ Thanks Jon......
Michael, Just for clarification. I don't think anyone has said this yet. "Black" pipe is the same stock material as galvanized pipe. It is painted and not galvanized. It is intended for use as above ground gas pipe. It is cheaper because it is not galvanized. I do not believe it is approved for domestic water supply piping.
I would check with the local building official to verify that it is not an approved material.
As to responding to a customer complaint,
I recommend that any inspector respond as quickly as
possible to any complaint. The longer you wait the more upset
the client tends to get. Go to the site to review the situation
if it can not be cleared up in a few minute phone conversation.
Bring along an experienced associate if possible. Listen to their
complaint. Do any additional evaluation you need to.
Take photo documentation if possible. Find out what they want or expect from you. Do not admit any responsibility at this time, even if you feel there is some. Tell them you need to go back to your office and do some additional research or consulting and that you will get back to them. If there is even the slightest possibility that you could incur any significant financial responsibility, inform your E&O carrier immediately. Do not write any checks unless the client is willing to sign a waiver releasing you from any future claims relating to the inspection. This is a negotiated settlement and gets them out of your life for ever. For the real jerks out there it may be worth giving up a few $ just to get them to sign a release form and put them out of your life.
Below is the text for a form I have
used. Have your attorney review it. Jon Gudnason - Sacramento,
CA
For the sole consideration of _____________ dollars $__________ the undersigned hereby releases and forever discharges ________________________ and all other persons, firms and corporations from all claims and demands, rights and causes of action of any kind the undersigned now has or hereafter may have on account of or in any way growing out of personal injuries known or unknown to me/us at the present time and property damage resulting or to result from an occurrence which happened on or about ___________, 19__ and do hereby covenant to indemnify and save harmless the said party or parties from and against all claims and demands whatsoever on account of or in any way growing out of said occurrence or its result both to person and property. This release expresses a full and complete SETTLEMENT of a liability claimed and denied regardless of adequacy of the above consideration, and the attempts of this release shall not operate as an admission of liability on the part of anyone nor as an estoppel, waiver or bar with respect to any claim the party or parties released may have against the undersigned. Witness my hand and seal.
Dated _________ 19__
YOU ARE MAKING A FINAL SETTLEMENT THIS IS A RELEASE:
READ BEFORE SIGNING
I/we have read this Release
Signature _____________________________
Print Name ___________________________
CLARIFICATION of the above "Incident Release Form": The Webster's dictionary defines ESTOPPEL as - LAW: The prevention of a person from making an affirmation or denial because it is contrary to a previous affirmation or denial that he has made.
Larry Cerro from Florida responded to Noel's liability posting......
Noel, Would your answer be the same
if the owner's child died because a big chunk of rust lodged in
his throat while getting a drink of water? Just playing the "what
if" game...........
Larry in Tallahassee, Florida
Noel didn't waste any time responding with.......
No, because I do a visible inspection. If the water supply pipe is black iron, clearly visible, not up to industry standards, and fail to report it, I'm liable.
Rust in the pipes is NOT a visible item.
As for Larry saying, Black pipe functioning normally is ok, lets just say we totally disagree.
Always put yourself in the buyer's position.
I bet some of these guys trying to make a case that this is ok would be screaming blue murder if they were the buyer and their HI failed to report visible, improper construction materials/workmanship.
I do not love lawyers, but I'm kinda fond of fairness. My opinion, if we weasel when we shouldn't, we deserve to be licensed.
Licensing will be the equalizer.
Government licensing is just the dumbing down of the business.
Every morning I have to look at myself in the mirror, those eyes looking back can still see, God forgive me if I ever blind them.
Death before dishonor.
We 're only talking about a small sum of money..... Noel McShane - GA
Pete Engle also responded.....
Sorry to tell you, but this could be a miss.
Water pipe does have to be galvanized or it gets chewed up pretty quick. Black iron pipe is not allowable for water piping by any codes I am aware of. But before you take the dive for this, how old is the house? Is the builder still liable for any of this?
Also: Are they actually having flow rate and leakage problems or did they get a plumber who's telling them that they're GOING to have these problems? Some water is less aggressive than other water, so black iron may last for a while.
It may be a miss, but there may be little economic harm. If the economic life of black iron in your area is, say 20 years, instead of 30-50 years, tell them you'll be glad to give them 30% of the cost of new plumbing, or you'll give them the whole thing in 20 years..... Pete Engle
Tony Devine responded in agreement with Noel's advice on settlement.....
I agree with Noel. Michael should try to work out a settlement.
There must be some problem with the pipe or it would not have been discovered by someone who can tell the difference between galvanized and black iron pipe.
The pipe may or may not have been clearly visible. Most service lines are only visible for a few inches before they end at the main valve, and usually they have years of dirt buildup and a grounding clamp covering part of that little bit. But Michael said it was galvanized so he must have seen something.
By this day and date, ignoring the black iron issue, any galvanized water service you find is either old enough to be worn out or was installed by a fool or a charlatan.
Seems like the real issue here is that even if the pipe was galvanized and functioning just fine, Michael should have told the client that it's an obsolete material and that he can expect to have to replace it. Not just to cover his #$%, but because it's true. This is exactly the kind of expert knowledge that the client paid for.
This whole thing is scary. It would never occur to me to suspect a black iron water service. You just scrape it a little with your screwdriver, put your magnet on it to be sure, and tell your client it's a galvanized line.
This reminds me of what a minefield this profession can be. Tony Devine - PA
I responded to Tony's test with......
I'm awaiting the response to this question.... It would be a lot of help. Tony said that you could tell the difference with a magnet so I took my trusty Domino's Pizza refrigerator magnet and stuck it to both galvanized and black pipe. Both were attracted and the magnet clung tight. Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
Tony Devine then shared....
The magnet is used to rule out lead or brass. The idea that a water service might be black iron never even crossed my mind. Tony Devine - PA
Walter Jower's then questioned.......
I might be showing my ignorance here, and I'm sure somebody will tell me if I am.
But aren't black iron pipe and galvanized pipe essentially the same thing? Isn't the only difference the zinc coating on the galvanized pipe? And doesn't the zinc coating wear off after a few years, and isn't that why galvanized pipe corrodes? So, wouldn't there be very little actual difference between *old* black iron and *old* galvanized? Both would be ferrous metal pipe with no zinc coating, right?
If I'm wrong, straighten me out. I just love learning new stuff.
I'm all for settling legit complaints, but I just keep thinking that Michael's getting bitten on a no-harm-no-foul kinda thing. Kinda like saying a post was eaten up by termites, and it turns out it was eaten up by carpenter ants.
Maybe we ought to stop using the word, "galvanized," and switch to "ferrous metal" pipe. Walter Jowers - Nashville, TN
Noel McShane responded to Walter with an interspersed response......
Except the galvanization is on both inner and outer surfaces of pipe.
And doesn't the zinc coating wear off after a few years,
No, after +twenty years- maybe depending
..... and isn't that why >galvanized pipe corrodes? So, wouldn't there be very little actual >difference between *old* black iron and *old* galvanized?
Big difference, the galvanized will BEGIN to rust after +twenty- years the black pipe will begin rusting IMMEDIATELY
Both would be ferrous metal pipe with no zinc coating, right? If I'm wrong, straighten me out. I just love learning new stuff. I'm all for settling legit complaints, but I just keep thinking that Michael's getting bitten on a no-harm-no-foul kinda thing.
Not necessarily, he may be in the clear if the pipe is not evident. However if it is evident and he miswrote/reported I would not call it a no-harm, no-foul thing, I don't think you would either if it was your daughter buying the house.
Kinda like saying a post was eaten up by termites, and it turns out it was eaten up by carpenter ants.
Nope kinda like saying a black pipe is the same as galvanized pipe-- it isn't!
The crux of the matter is not whether
black pipe and galvanized pipe are equal, they are not.
The crux is was black pipe visible to inspector and if it was
shouldn't the inspector know that that would be a big red flag?
In my opinion if it was visible, the answer is YES!
Maybe we ought to stop using the word, "galvanized," and switch to "ferrous metal" pipe.
Nope, that would be like calling Masonite siding wood siding. This is not complicated. Either it was errancy in the report as to the type of supply pipe or it was not. If it was, there is no wiggle room. Come to a settlement and gracefully exit, make lemonade when served lemons.
The supposed black pipe is only from the meter to the home.
Exactly why when I do train new HI's I always tell them to check water supply lines to house at both the meter (typically in ground around here) AND at the shut-off in crawl/basement/garage).
I have inspected houses where the HI before me wrote that supply line was copper because that's what he saw coming out the wall. I find it's polybutylene because I checked at the meter. Doesn't make the guy who goes before look too swift.
If I am wrong, then so be it..... You can bet that I will verify in the future whether that non-copper, non-plastic water main is actually galvanized or black pipe and report accordingly. Michael Leavitt - Orem, UT
There you go!.....The lessons we pay for are well-remembered, hopefully others on the board will also gain some inspection tips/knowledge along the way. That's why the forum is here. Noel McShane - GA
Greg DeVault responded to Walter.....
I guess it boils down to the time a person can expect the pipe to last. I believe Michael said the house was about 20 years old. I don't have any figures on this but I suspect 20 years on galvanized piping will be OK but 20 years on black iron won't. How long does it take the zinc to go away?
Anyone got any numbers? I do know that most of the houses I inspect that were built in the 60's and 70's that have galvanized pipes generally have pretty OK flow (most have copper but some were still using galvanized). The ones in the 50's and earlier generally don't. Probably depends a lot on the chemicals in the water in the specific area.
It's kind of like saying that a furnace with a HX of thin tin will work for a while but a heavy gauge metal will last much longer.
This gets me to thinking about something else. When I go in and see black iron gas line in a basement, it generally comes in from above. If I remember correctly Michael said it was stubbed up from the floor. If black iron pipe is run underground won't it rust on the *outside*of the pipe? If they have a protective coating on the outside to retard rust (other than zinc), is it also on the inside? I never really gave it any thought before now. Greg DeVault - Seattle, WA
At this point I clarified some details for Walter's forum.......
The letter indicates that the 9 year old house is suffering from low water pressure. The home piping is copper throughout. The supposed black pipe is only from the meter to the home. I found this out from my archived report. At about 2 AM Saturday night/Sunday morning I was awakened with the thought that the home probably has a faulty pressure regulator. This is the surest cause of low water flow in our area.
The advice given by the members of this forum has been great. I do not want to weasel out of anything..... If I am wrong, then so be it..... You can bet that I will verify in the future whether that non-copper, non-plastic water main is actually galvanized or black pipe and report accordingly. I will let you know later what the outcome is. Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
Tony Devine then speculated....
This is my understanding of the pipe corrosion question. I can't verify or support any of it.
The inside of a ferrous water supply pipe doesn't corrode much because the water deposits a mineral scale on the pipe walls that isolates them from the water.
The exterior of the pipe corrodes at a constant rate underground. A zinc coating on the exterior of the pipe delays the onset of the corrosion by at least a decade, and usually preserves the pipe long enough for the scale to block it up and render it useless.
It would really be interesting to take a look at a piece of Michael's black iron line after they dig it up.
By the way, for gas piping, the NFPA Fuel Gas Code just says, "Gas piping in contact with earth ....shall be protected against corrosion in an approved manner." Tony Devine - PA
Larry Hoytt responded to Noel McShane....
Noel: Read my comments again. I never suggested that " Black pipe functioning normally is ok". I was trying to suggest that if there is no functional problem the buyer would have a hard time proving they have been damaged.
Most judges and juries don't automatically award just because an installation is not correct unless there is a functional problem that impacts them. Larry Hoytt - Marin County, CA
Ken Salvo had yet to hear when my return visit was scheduled.....
Michael, Have you revisited the home yet to check it out? We're awaiting more info-with baited breath! Ken Salvo - NJ
Pete Engle responded to the zinc coating issue....
The zinc coating doesn't just wear off: it gets eaten away electrolytically. This is what its there for. Until most of the galvanizing is gone, you don't get any corrosion inside. This buys you an extra 20-30 years of service in most areas. That's the whole point.
Still, I agree with Walter that there's little harm done by the material difference. The damage to the client is the depreciated difference between the black iron pipe and the galvanized pipe. The issue of labor for installation is a bit trickier.
Somebody else mentioned that the real damage here is in not identifying an old steel pipe water service. Black or galvanized, this stuff has a pretty limited life span. You should be aware of what that is based on the water conditions in your area. In my area, all steel service pipes get a warning note. If water flow is marginal, they get a much stronger one.
If the report had said the service was galvanized, and had words to the effect that it was approaching the end of its useful life and would require replacement soon, then there would be no harm done. I think the miss was the lack of warning about lifespan, not the material used. Pete Engle
Walter Jowers shared his computerized boilerplate on the topic.....
Okay, *here's* the galvanized pipe boilerplate:
The water supply system comprises
some galvanized pipe. This is typical of a house this age. Galvanized
supply plumbing eventually corrodes, causing a drop in water pressure.
When water pressure becomes too low, the galvanized plumbing must
be replaced. Deciding when it's time to replace old galvanized
pipe is a subjective judgment, and you're the one to make it.
One suggestion: Turn on a shower, adjust the flow and temperature
the way you like it. Then do any of these things: Flush a commode,
start the dishwasher, turn on the water at a sink, start the water
at a hose bib (as if you were watering the lawn). Now go back
and check the shower. Would you still be happy in there? Could
you get the soap out of your hair? If not, it's time
to replace the galvanized pipe.
Frequently Asked Question: Will I have to replace all the galvanized pipe or just some of it? If only some, how much?
Answer: We don't know. Sometimes, one little piece of corroded pipe can cause a big drop in water flow. Sometimes, every inch of galvanized pipe has to come out. Sometimes, the pipe from the house to the water meter has to be replaced. This is one of those jobs where you won't know how big it is until the job is under way. Walter Jowers - Nashville, TN
Noel McShane then came down with autoritative boilerplate.....
I'm somewhat surprised by this debate on black iron pipe for water supply line. I posted earlier that it has not met code for thirty years, actually it is much longer. I can't find any instance where it EVER met code. Here is my boilerplate on the subject.
Improper water supply piping: The main water supply piping to the house consists of black iron piping. This type of piping is not rated or suitable for water supply. Ferrous metal piping is only rated for potable water supply if the piping is galvanized. Use of black pipe as a potable water supply line not only does not meet industry standards, but it will also lead to excessive rust build up in water lines causing loss of flow and premature failure. Black iron type piping is rated for gas/oil supply in residential construction and should only be used for same.
As an aside, Galvanized pipe is no longer acceptable by many local authorities/modern code.
Walters boilerplate on galvanized pipe is excellent. Feel free to use the above or salvage what you wish.
NOTE: also that I do not make recommendations for replacement (unless the house is new of course.) I did my job by calling out the improper installation and it's consequences. If asked if the piping should be replaced I would say "That's up to you the buyer, I just supply the facts."
If they are Savvy enough to ask "Would you want the piping replaced if you were buying the house?" I 'd say "Darn tooting I would!"
It horrifies me to hear some say this is no big deal. I further say, that I know which side of the fight I'd be on in a court case. Noel McShane - GA
Walter Jowers clarified........
For my part, I'm not saying it's exactly no big deal. If this were a new house, it would be a *huge* deal. But as I recall, this house is 20 years old. Even if the HI called it wrong, I think the *damages* are likely to be no big deal.
Customers who think we oughta climb up on a cross because we make a harmless (or near-harmless) mistake is one of my pet peeves. (Okay, so it's not wallpaper. It's Lincrusta. So shoot me.)
I just think Bro Michael should be held responsible for the difference in depreciated value between what the pipe is, and what he said it was. I don't think it'll be much money. Of course, I could be wrong. Walter Jowers - Nashville, TN
Noel clarified his position....
I place it right along with a rusted/scaling heat exchanger that is close to burned out or cracked and not reported.
The cost of replacement of a furnace and supply line piping is comparable, yet most HI's have all kinds of gadgets to check the darn things, mirrors, testers etc. All you need to check water supply lines are your eyes.
Says something about our profession doesn't it.
If the furnace chamber was cracked and visible and you missed it is your responsibility limited to the depreciated value of the unit? I don't think so.............
Even if the house "is" twenty years old, black pipe shouldn't be used for water supply then or now, It should be reported, period. Noel McShane - GA
As to the depreciated value issue, Walter Jowers replied to Noel with....
If we're talking strictly legal, I think the HI would only be responsible for the depreciated value of the unit. Assuming, of course, nobody got hurt.
The way I understand it, if an HI misses a call on a 20-year-old furnace, and the customer had to buy a new furnace, the HI would be responsible for the depreciated value to the old unit.
Rationale: The guy only had a 20-year-old furnace to start with. Can't owe him more than he started with.
At least here in #$%backwards Tennessee, a person who goofs is only responsible for making the offendee no worse off than he was before they met. There's no responsibility to make him better off.
It's the same thing as when you wreck your car. You get its book value, not a spanking new car off the showroom.
I must say, I give you credit for a heightened sense of right and wrong, and it's yet another reason the customers are lucky to have you on their side. Still, as far as I know, our legal obligation is always limited to the value of the thing lost, whatever that is. And it's a good thing, too, or customers would cash in their HI reports like lottery tickets. Walter Jowers, Nashville
Noel responded with a firm warning that all of us Home Inspectors should take to heart.......
And The seller has allowed for a home inspection to find these things. One of the reasons sellers allow this is because it reduces their liability after closing. As long as they can say they were not aware of any problems they can point squarely to the Hi who, supposedly is a professional.
" You had an inspection, your inspector should have found it"
That does hold up in court for a seller. The Hi is only liable if it is deemed that a problem/issue was visible at the time of the inspection and it is reasonable to expect a "professional" inspector to report on that problem/issue.
You takes the money for your services you a "Pro" and all the joys, responsibilities that go with it.
That's when you get registered letters, everyone else is legally safe, your still blowing in the wind if you didn't do the inspection correctly. Again, we are assuming that black pipe water supply is clearly visible, I don't if Michael's was.
I know I'm right about this. Wanna know how I know?
Because if my daughter hired a HI who made this mistake( provided he DID screw up, I'm not saying Michael did, just IF someone did) and he tried to hide or disclaim responsibility I'd sue his #$%. Trust me, he'd know he screwed up, one way or the other........ I'd discredit and bury him so deep in #$%@ he'd wonder what dragon he had awakened...... Justice required. Noel McShane - GA
Carl Turnbow shared this code reference.....
Michael, Section 604 of the U.P.C. manual 1994 addition. BLACK IRON is not included in the of acceptable potable water lines or pipes. I hope this helps. It might be an answer or it might create A ? Good luck. Carl Turnbow - Placerville,CA
Tony Devine shared these final tips......
Michael, Do you have the means to test the regulator? Is it the water company's regulator? Did you consider trying to get a water company rep to meet you there? Seems to me that he might help your case, but couldn't hurt it.
If they're remodeling, look for signs of digging on the lawn and street. Maybe a contractor whacked the line.
Also, if the place is less than 10 years old, maybe there's a long forgotten builder's warranty laying around somewhere. Good luck, Tony Devine - PA
Bless Walter's heart..... He ended the topic with this vote of confidence.......
I'm going to start a little betting pool, while we're waiting on the outcome. I say that when Michael goes back to look at the house, he's not going to find black iron water supply.
I bet a nickel. Walter Jowers - Nashville, TN
I was touched by Walter's response and shared the response of which I started this edition of the MMM.......
Walter's Forum: I'm betting with Walter and appreciate his
support. I have been way too busy
to respond to all of the great replies on the Forum. My wife called
to schedule the return visit and she said that she had never been
so sweet to a person in her whole life. My wife calling his wife.....
Shelly said that she did not want to give them any reason to be
mad at us. Afterall, I am returning to help resolve the situation.
I will be returning Friday evening so there is plenty of time for everybody to book their bets with Walter. The discussions on this forum have allowed me to come to grips with the worst case scenario as well as the best case. During Shelly's conversation it was learned that the new buyers have been remodeling the place since buying it 10 months ago. They still don't yet live in the place. It is a 9 to 10 year old house and not 20 like I originally told all of you..... the report confirmed this. It will be interesting to find out whether the discovery came to light as they ripped out a covered section or not. I'm still thinking that it is galvanized with a failed regulator. When the regulator goes bad, the flow drops off to nil.
If it is black pipe then I'll pay up..... Funny though..... I've never been called on the carpet for mis-identifying something. Usually they are mad because a component failed prematurely or it failed just like I told them it would in the report... On the other hand, the agents complain because I am overly thorough...... I'll keep you informed and hope that those who bet against me loose big..... Michael Leavitt - Orem, Utah
QUOTABLE QUOTES: "There you go!.....The lessons we pay for are
well-remembered. Hopefully others on the board will also gain
some inspection tips/knowledge along the way. That's why the forums
are here." Noel McShane
- GA[Michael Leavitt's Home Page | Back Issues of the MMM | Current Issue of the MMM]
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