It's a great day here in Orem, Utah! 14 more days to go till Christmas. Currently the Leavitt family is snowed in at the Powder Mountain ski resort near Ogden, Utah. This resort will be the host of many of the Olympic skiing events in 2002. We have the luxury of spending much of the week in a wonderful timeshare condo. The kids are excited about the week of skiing. Even little 2 year old Aaron will be skiing on the slopes..... I wish that I had learned to ski at age two.
Getting up here was quite the adventure. Shelly and three of the kids went up ahead to get our condo keys before the timeshare office closed. A snowstorm hit just before she arrived and her minivan wouldn't make it up the mountain without chains. Her car overheated from excessive tire spinning and she sat in the snow for an hour before heading back down the mountain and calling me on my cell phone. We spent the night down the mountain at a hotel and then purchased cable snow chains. (Recommended by the auto parts guy!) And then, first thing the next morning, off we went again up the mountain--this time we were prepared!! As other vehicles were flying by us, we were still struggling quite a bit. Neither one of us could figure out why everyone else seemed to be doing fine and we were still spinning a lot of tires. The access road was really steep aand I figured it was just because of all of the fresh snow.
Finally, I pulled over to let a flock of cars go by and Shelly noticed that I didn't seem to have cables on my tire anymore. She honked at me and then we noticed that both vehicles had thrown the cable chains....probably quite a few miles back. That explained a lot. We decided we must be close and so we would try to go as far as we could. As we inched our way up the mountain, we finally made it to the base ski lift. Both vehicles were overheated and neither could go any further. At this point, we still had to get up to our condo, which was another 2 miles up the road with 1 mile of that a dirt (snow covered) road. I went back down the mountain to have a chat with the auto parts guy who had talked me in to these wonderful cable chains. Shelly and the kids stayed in the lodge and stalled. The kids were chomping at the bit to go skiing. It was blizzard conditions but they didn't care.
It was difficult leaving Shelly because she now had been through two lousy ascent attempts to get to the luxurious condo. I was a bit frazzled myself and wondered if this was going to be worthwhile. The cable chain experience put me over the edge because I felt that I had done everything within my power, yet it still wasn't good enough. I was also miffed because I had wanted real chains the night before, but the parts man reminded me that real chains were not approved for use on our mini-vans. Instead, we really needed the lower profile cable chains. This had me brewing up angrily inside as I headed back to their establishment not knowing what they were going to say as I set two, 12-hour-old shredded cable chain sets on their countertop.
Luckily I encountered great customer service from the AutoZone parts manager and they gave me the more expensive real snow chains with tensioners without any additional investment. Back up the mountain I went, but this time I didn't need chains because the snowstorm had stopped and the sun was even making it through the cloud cover. By this time of the day the roads had cleared and I made it all the way back to the base lodge without needing the chains. Shelly was relieved to see me and we headed up chainless to our condo. It turns out that it was a good thing that I got the real chains because half way up the dirt road we were spinning with no progress. We could see the condos, but I once again had to chain up the vehicles. My extra drive down the mountain was not completely in vain and the real chains work great........ LESSON LEARNED - Don't waste the emotional and financial investment on cable chains. When you need chains on your vehicle go for the real thing!!!
We are finally here, but too late to get any phone service hooked up until tomorrow. That is why the MMM is a little delayed. Have to wait until the timeshare office opens and pluck down $20 so that they will turn on our phone service. This is a vacation... relax ...remember to take deep breaths.... Getting to the slopes will require walking out the front door and skiing to the lifts. The fresh powder will be 18" deep and cascading off my waste as you are reading this edition of the MMM..... Enjoy your inspections!!!
Hi Michael: A friend of mine sent this photo. It brings up a point concerning safety that maybe can be shared with the group. We often do many jobs so often that we get into situations where the job is a "natural act" or is "automatic". The photo makes the point that even the best get into difficulties. Act and be safe going to, performing, and coming from the job. It only takes an extra moment to think and follow safe practices. Have a great day and a safe Holiday Season! Warm Regards, JimCorbin - Bow, WA
What is wrong with this installation? It will leak! Jon Gudnason - Placerville, CA
WHERE TO POSITION A CO DETECTOR
Last week Robert E. Lee asked......
Being a new reader you may have discussed this issue in the MMM in the past. I always test for CO and encourage buyers to equip the home with CO Detectors regardless of the readings at the time of the inspection. I've always told folks that the best location if you were to have only one detector would be in the hall outside the bedrooms in an outlet near the floor. However, when challenged on this by a buyer, I was unable to find anything to back me up on this recommendation. It is my understanding that CO is heavier than air (thus the detectors near the floor), makes me wonder of what value the combo units (smoke alarm/co detectors) that are mounted on the ceiling. I'd be interested in what others think on this issue. Robert E Lee - General Home Inspection, Inc. - Rochester, MN
Just like smoke detectors, there is no one best place to install a CO detector. For safety, one CO detector may not be enough. CO can come from any gas appliance, including gas ranges, ovens, water heaters, furnaces, etc. Another common source is wood burning stoves and fireplaces including decorative logs and gas log lighters. Gas dryers is another source. Therefore, some homes may need several detectors. The carbon monoxide molecule has approximately the same weight as oxygen. Thus carbon monoxide will eventually mix with the air. Given enough time to distribute, the carbon monoxide will eventually distribute evenly throughout the living space. Being a gas, it can easily pass through walls. However, since the condition is a dire safety issue, early detection is a most. In my opinion, CO detectors should be located near the major gas appliances and in proximity to fireplaces and wood stoves. Locating the CO tester anywhere on the wall or ceiling does not matter, since the CO will mix into the air evenly. Just my $.02. Dan Back - Yuba City, CA
Michael, Here in Northern California, there is becoming a big issue about the failing Consolidated Industries attic mounted gas furnaces. Tonight on our local news, there is to be a segment on one of the news shows dealing with it. The local board of Realtors has contacted NAR legal to see if there is the need for another "disclosure paper". The home warranty folks aren't covering any repairs and tip top on the list, no licensed HVAC company is willing to work on the units in the first place. At the recent manager/broker meeting here at our board, they were talking like this is going to make the ABS pipe issue look like peanuts compared to the potential ramifications with these furnaces. How do you address the issue? What is your area's climate and feelings about the heaters? Have you been affected for the past year or two or is it something that is just coming out of the water? Love to know. Ken Ives - Sacramento, CA
Back on October 2, 2000, I shared the following CPSC Release in the MMM.......
September 27, 2000 - For Immediate Release - CPSC Hotline: (800) 638-2772 Release # 00-190 - Contact: Ken Giles - (301) 504-0580 Ext. 1184
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is warning consumers in California that certain gas-fired horizontal forced-air furnaces manufactured by Consolidated Industries (formerly Premier Furnace Company) present a substantial risk of fire. There have been about 30 reports of fires and damage to homes associated with these furnaces, as well as failures of burners and heat exchangers that can lead to fires. The furnaces were installed exclusively in California.
Consolidated manufactured approximately 190,000 of these furnaces from 1983 through 1994 under many different brand names. Most of the furnaces were manufactured under the Premier/Consolidated labels. All of the furnaces can be identified by the fact that they are equipped with steel control rods installed above the burners. These steel rods were required to satisfy California air quality regulations for nitrous oxide emissions.
Many of these furnaces are still in use. Normally, the furnaces are installed in attics, although some may be installed in crawl spaces.
The Commission is warning consumers to have their gas-fired furnaces inspected by a licensed heating contractor to determine whether the furnaces are subject to this safety alert. The contractor also should determine whether the burners and/or heat exchangers of units are damaged, or whether wood under or near the furnaces shows signs of damage, such as charring or blackening. If this is the case, the furnace should be replaced immediately or repaired.
Because Consolidated is currently in bankruptcy liquidation, the availability of repair parts is at this time unresolved. However, there is on-going private litigation which could enable consumers to recover at least some of their out-of-pocket expenses for replacement or repair of the furnaces.
Suggestions for improving the fire safety of all horizontal forced-air furnaces in attics are:
For additional information, consumers should contact CPSC's toll-free hotline at (800) 638- 2772.
According to this notice, Ken, this is just a California warning. I wish that I had a picture of the unit and the steel rods above the burn chambers that they referred to, but I don't. If you come across one of these units, please snap us a picture. I really can't imagine how places like Klammath Falls, Oregon, can be immune to these units since they are near the border...... Then again, it sounds as though these units have special California emission systems like California cars. The press release leaves me wondering what are the other brand names that California inspectors should be looking for..... Keep us informed!
Michael, I like this note from the current MMM, but I have a challenge for you.
QUOTABLE QUOTES "Would you rather pay me for a big book that covers everybody else's house as well as some scribble notes on your home, or do you want a detailed book written specifically for the house you are buying???" Michael Leavitt Is it misleading to say that it was "written" specifically for them? Isn't it actually "compiled"? Just a thought. Ken Ives - Sacramento, CA
I suppose that you could be a lawyer for the Clinton/Gore team. When is a dimple a vote? What is the meaning of IS?...... I suppose that I should've also used the word Report in place of Book too. The good thing is that I know that you were right with me in the sentiment of the discussion.
If you are eagerly awaiting my thoughts on the Compaq iPaq here are some good ones to consider. I think that it is the best machine for the money ($499), but there are some limitations.
So if you are going to buy a new machine I strongly recommend you purchase a Compaq iPaq. If you are looking at used machines I think that the Casio is still a good investment. I think that the Casio loses out in the new marketplace because it is $100 more than the iPaq for a lot of features that we do not fully need to take advantage of. For example, the main weakness of the iPaq is that if you need extra memory storage, a modem, or any other accessory you must insert the unit into a bulky backpack cartridge system that then allows you to plug in the additional storage medium or card. This is a strong bonus to the Casio because it has a card slot already built into the machine and there are no added backpack cartridges to purchase. NOTE: The backpack cartridges are not yet available for the iPaq so the prices and availabilty are still big unknowns. This is a big issue if you want to use your machine as a music machine or photo machine. For inspecting only, you do not need the extra accessories or memory features. The on-board 32 meg of ram is plenty for inspection forms and reports.
Your Name: Please include your name or else I don't know who it is from.
Can anyone with a background in HVAC update me on the latest info for testing HVAC units. (Turning them on to see that they work.) If it is 40 degrees or 100 degrees outside, will it hurt the unit(s) to test them. I was told it wouldn't hurt the units to test them. My question is........ Does it harm the HVAC units to test them under very cold or very hot weather? Ken Jones - CA
As far as testing heat, if it is not too hot in the house for the thermostat to call for heat, there is no reason not to test. You can't hurt the heater because it is too hot. There are conditions where it might be OK for you to run a A/C unit if the outside air is below 65 degrees but there are also conditions where you could damage the unit. It is beyond the scope of a home inspection to figure all this out and the A/C unit need not be tested when the outside air is below 65. If John Rebenstorff is lurking out there, maybe he will weigh in on this somewhat controversial issue. He had a great seminar that covered this subject at the annual conference. Jon Gudnason - Placerville, CA
Then John Rebenstorff stopped lurking and responded........
Lets start with heating first. During the summer you may test the furnace with no harm to the unit. The method I use is to operate and check-out the air conditioning first. That way I've cooled the home down and lowered the return air temperature. If the home is really warm inside you may want to run the A/C unit for a while and check others areas before testing the heating system. This applies to heat pumps, electric, or gas furnaces.
Remember when checking the temperature that you do not wait too long or the burners or heating method may cycle off and you will not get an accurate reading. You should have at least a 30 degrees (F) rise. If the data plate gives you the temperature rise information, use it. It may read something like 45-70 degrees (F). This means that the reading should fall somewhere between these two points. Ideally it would fall midway or slightly above midway. Example: The return air reading is 70 degrees (F) and the supply reading is 125 degrees (F)---Remember to take reading as close to unit as possible--. Subtract 70 from 125 and you get 55. The temperature rise information said 45- degrees (F); 55 is about midway so system heating is OK. A high temperature may indicate, restriction in air flow (dirty filter), a very high temperature could indicate a cracked heat exchanger. Any supply temperature reading 200 degrees (F)or above, recommend a licensed HVAC technician further evaluate. Air conditioning should be tested in the winter only if the outside air temperature has been 65 degrees (F) for more than 24 hours. This is due to system migration of the refrigerant and could damage the compressor ( short explanation). Heat pumps are a special case and was discussed at the conference, the consensus was treat the cooling cycle of a heat pump the same as an Air Conditioner- under 65 degrees OSA temp do not operate in A/C mode. Then we're all talking from the same sheet. Remember a heat pump that operates in one mode may not operate in the other due to items like the reversing valve and check valves. Hope this helps, John Rebenstorff - CA
John, I would like to add a small bit to your response to testing the heating system. I recommend a licensed tech anytime the temp goes over the max rise temp not just when it goes over 200 or when the temp goes over 140 with no max rise template seen. Very good response. Ron Cloyd - Klammath Falls, OR
Ron, You're right. Thanks for that, a temperature rise over 140 degrees (F) may indicate that the operating stat. is not functioning. This applies to newer furnaces, some of the older that may still be around, could have an adjustable limit switch and is set for temperatures around 160 degrees (F). This is usually due to long duct runs in the system. John Rebenstorff - CA
This all makes sense to me, John, but could you tell me what an "operating stat." is??? You specialty gurus always forget that there are feable minds like me out here reading your remarks scratching my head.
Your Name: Please include your name or I don't know who it is from...
COMBUSTION AIR???
...Where will the make-up air for the fans come from? Jon Gudnason, Placerville, CA
Obviously there has to be an adequate supply of make-up air for the appliances to operate safely. In my area, all of the tight newer homes seem to have provisions for adequate combustion air. The furnace and water heater are nearly always located in the garage, and 2 vents are required in the exterior wall of the garage. The cases of inadequate combustion air I run into are nearly all where an electric forced air furnace located in a closet has been replaced with a gas furnace, and the dimwit installer didn't add the needed venting. Very few homes in this area have gas dryer hookups (because of a history of very low electric rates and no gas service), but they are being installed in more of the new homes now that gas service is more available. Gary Holzbauer - OR
Great observations on your area, Gary..... Remember that both gas and electric dryers have the ability to suck the fresh air out of a utility room that also contains the heater and water heater. I understand that many of you are inspecting in moderate climates where the clothes dryers are in separate areas from the other utilities, but in the cold climates it is common to find all of these in the same room in the home.
Dan Back has been testing for CO for years and he offers the following insites.....
With a tight construction home and assuming the above, sounds like you get a negative pressure in the home. Make-up combustion air would most likely come from backdrafting at the water heater exhaust vent (and/or backdrafting at fireplaces, furnace exhaust vents,etc.). If the water heater is burning efficiently, then it would bring CO2 and H2O into the living space(and some aldehydes). An inefficent burner would bring in carbon monoxide.
Incidently, any make-up air obtained from a burning fireplace would also bring in carbon monoxide. In addition, even during complete combustion, if the water heater is attempting to utilize carbon dioxide for combustion air, another unsafe condition can occur. Carbon dioxide at 44amu(atomic weight) is heavier than oxygen at 32amu and carbon monoxide at 28amu. The heavier CO2 would be found at the floor of the laundry room. A gas dryer requires oxygen to burn efficiently. Guess what, CO2 is commonly used by our firemen to put out fires. A dryer utilizing CO2 would result in carbon monoxide exiting the dryer vent.
Now if the dryer duct has a leak in the laundry room, vents into the garage, or crawl space, we have a dangerous condition. CO is odorless and our blood cells have an infinity of 480 times of picking up the CO molecule over that of oxygen. How many times have we seen the old remodeled home with insulated window, W.S, and yes that little low sloped porch containing the dryer and water heater with the short single/double wall vent connected to the old transite flue. Bettcha the flue from the top of the water heater is less than the required 5 feet required lenth due to the low roof pitch. This is the minimum lenth for good drafting and has been a requirment since approximately 1927. Look for spillage and or corrosion at the diverter and soot adjacent the burner, indications of gas exhaust spillage and or incomplete combustion. Dan Back - Yuba City, CA
Scott Merritt also shared......
The air will come from the water heater flue, getting sucked down into the interior along with the noxious exhaust gas. Not a good situation, but one that can and does pass the scrutiny of builders, planning departments, and dare I say: home inspectors. So, Jon, do you routinely recommend a CO2 detector in the area of the water heater that is installed in an interior space? And when will the requirement for C02 detectors be established for homes with gas appliances? It seems that there are regulations about a myriad of other conditions that are less threatening to occupants. As inspectors I think we tend to take a hard line with any safety issue if we have been personally touched by it. (Ask Ron Cloyd about GFCI). The recommendation for a CO2 detector is so sensible, (and inexpensive), that there is no reason not to make the recommendation. There may be no "requirement" other than common sense on the part of the homeowner to put one or more in the home to use, but you just might save a life by suggesting they do so. Scott Merritt - Grass Valley, CA
After receiving this message from Scott I immediately fired off a request to Ron Cloyd to reshare his GFCI experience. He responded with this family "almost" tragedy......
I had a new house built in 1976 after retiring from the Navy. The electrician was installing a type circuit breaker (GFCI) that I had never seen before, so being a curious person I asked about it and he educated me. Several months later I came home from work to find my wife Kathy giving Scott and Jeff (5 & 4 years old) their baths. Actually they were bathing and Kathy was plucking her eyebrow with the scissor type pluckers in front of the mirror. You know the kind with an aluminum rivet as the pivot point? I sat down in the newer renovated family room/garage and was watching the evening news.
Just behind me on the wall and now behind a picture was the electrical service panel. I heard a clicking noise and instantly knew what had just happened. I ran from the room, about 20 steps to the boy's bathroom trying to figure out how to give CPR to two kids at the same time. I figured I could get Kathy on the way by the phone (the reason she left the bathroom in the first place, just as the boys were getting out of the tub onto the vinyl flooring). She could learn CPR while I did it on one of the boys and do the same thing to our other son. (Kind of a funny thing, I had completed CPR training the week before!) I came through open the door and to my very great relief were two standing boys, their hair was standing straight up in the air (REALLY). Their eyes were as big as saucers, and they were white as ghosts. Interestingly, they were also very quiet. Our sons were unharmed except for the melted aluminum pop rivet that dripped on to Jeff's arm and burnt him. Jeff, the youngest, was very mad, but was very quiet at that moment (He has refused to take baths or even be in the bathroom with his brother from that moment onward). Long story short, the GFCI's work (If properly wired). You know it only takes about .015 to .025 of one amp to kill a person. The GFCI detects the short/ground and trips the circuit breaker/GFCI outlet before it gets to about .005 of one amp, called 5 milli amps. Our boys are both successful engineers today. They both remember the electrifying day like it was yesterday. Neither one of them opted for the electrical engineering field. Instead, one opted for mechanical engineering as a practicing civil engineer and our other sone is a structural engineer. So what happened in the bathroom that day?...... I guess you would like to know just a little more information? Scott, the oldest, took his Mom's pluckers and being a very smart little boy, saw that they would fit nicely into the outlet in the wall. They were both standing naked, dripping wet in a pool of water on the vinyl floor. For some reason he inserted them into the receptacle and the GFCI protection saved their lives. The pluckers however, were no longer useable. The ends of the pluckers were burnt off. The rivet was non-existant. The boys had failed their first lesson on electricity and still lived to talk about it. We actually did discuss what had happened. They both agreed that this would never happen again. Boys being boys, they did find other challenges in their lives. Some of the challenges I would prefer never to know about. I would suggest that all inspectors use this story to educate your clients about the importance of GGCI's. For less than $10 this relatively easy safety upgrade can save the lives of your clients.
GFCI TESTING ADVICE... I DON'T RECOMMEND THAT ANYONE TEST A GFCI BY STANDING NAKED ON THE VINYL FLOOR, DRIPPING WET AND STICKING AN EYELASH PLUCKER INTO THE RECEPTACLE! Instead, you should use the electrical tester to test the polarity. Then press the Test and Reset buttons on the receptacle. I do not endorse using the GFCI test button on the elctrical tester unless you want to buy a freezer full of beef (another experiential story). Hope this helps Michael, Happy holiday Season! Love to your family, Ron Cloyd
Name, City & State: Please include your name or else I don't know who it is from.
Ken Ives has once again snapped a photo and left the Reportable Condition a mystery. So focus your eagle eyes and come up with what Ken is trying to share with us..... What do you see???
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